Science Fiction Categories: A Proposal

I was wondering if your analysis program could be expanded, or a different version created, that would use phrases as opposed to single words.

For example, from a previous post of mine, "Gravity" and "Gravity well". The latter almost certainly would reflect hard science content.

I have been keeping a log of the results of the works. I have found ten that use the word "gravity" more than 8 times. None used the phrase "gravity well".

I am somewhat amazed at how fast it is searching for just over 200 word. But the more added to search for the slower it will get. And it still doesn't test for capitalization so I am under counting somewhat.

psik
 
I have been keeping a log of the results of the works. I have found ten that use the word "gravity" more than 8 times. None used the phrase "gravity well".

I am somewhat amazed at how fast it is searching for just over 200 word. But the more added to search for the slower it will get. And it still doesn't test for capitalization so I am under counting somewhat.

psik

I only thought of this because the book I was reading at the time just happened to use it. Of course a search will get slower unless we could toss the work into an RDBMS with indexes, but now we are starting to get suspiciously close to work here :p

The book I was reading had to have used the word Gravity more than 8 times, or perhaps I just noticed it more often due to this thread. It was Pohl Anderson's 'For Love and Glory'. Which I actually did not like and plan on selling at Half Price Books next time I am there.
 
Duh, Freudian Slip! LOL

I wrote:
Psychology is just as much a science as fiction.

That was supposed to be:
Psychology is just as much a science as physics.

:eek:

In many ways it is a more difficult science than physics.

psik
 
Duh, Freudian Slip! LOL

I wrote:


That was supposed to be:
Psychology is just as much a science as physics.

:eek:

In many ways it is a more difficult science than physics.

psik

That's alright; I got your intended meaning. But technically psychiatry is the physical science, as is neurology, both being part of biology. Psychology is a social science, along with sociology. They use the same scientific method as the physical sciences and of course there is a ton of overlap and connection and study between the two, since behavior has a cultural component, biological components, etc.

That being said, Flowers for Algernon is very much a psychological novel of SF. But no one considers it a hard SF novel. The amount of specific physical science content in it is low. It would, presumably, get a fairly low score on your vocab system. So that's the spectrum of your system. You're not going to be rating psychological and cultural (social) SF novels as high on science content. Your system might be able to tell a reader just how much technical, physical science vocabulary is in one sociological SF novel compared to another sociological SF novel. If the amount of technical, physical science in the story is then important to them, then that would be a guide to them as to which sociological SF novels (those with medium scores,) to read instead of other sociological SF novels (those with low scores.)
 
Our so called educational system is being invaded with, or possibly corrupted by, technology. This Common Core stuff, that I have yet to find what I regard as a good explanation of, is using computer rated reading levels. One system is called ATOS. Don't ask what the acronym stands for. I found it and it contains another acronym which explained nothing.

http://www.renlearn.com/atos/Analyze.aspx?type=3&lang=english

It is these systems that made me think of writing a program to test SF but I am using real words to search on and not just counting letters. These systems rate longer sentences as more difficult to read.

But anyway, there are about 20-some different text rating systems which all involve counting letters or syllables in words and the sentences in words and then doing some different sorts of computations which is supposed to say how difficult it is to read. But they don't examine which actual words are used so they can't tell sci-fi from fantasy or anything else. They just spit out magic numbers which some adults and kids believe.

So I ran my 5 selected works through both systems to see what mush came out.

ATOS: 8.9 S-word density 0.140 & 0.372 REH_QenoBlkost.txt
ATOS: 7.2 S-word density 0.106 RW_CatanMous.txt **
ATOS: 7.2 S-word density 0.178 RFY_ThSrvntPrblm.txt **
ATOS: 7.5 S-word density 1.341 HBP_Omniling.txt **
ATOS: 6.0 S-word density 1.433 RK_AllDaySept.txt **

Maybe not too surprisingly the science word density mostly increased down the list though Queen of the Black Coast got a somewhat higher score than Cat and Mouse which I think qualifies as science fiction. It does have an alien from somewhere, and another planet. QotBC also got the highest ATOS and Fantasy scores. The other SF works all got less than 0.015 on Fantasy. Howard used long sentences so that accounts for the ATOS score.

The rating systems our schools are using for text eval say nothing about SF or Fantasy content. I was surprised by the big gap between 0.178 and 1.341. I will have to evaluate some more middle ground scores. But at least the system corresponds with my UNscientific relative science order. But I do think Quenn of the Black Coast is a better story than All Day September.

psik
 
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The rating systems our schools are using for text eval say nothing about SF or Fantasy content.
psik

Why would they? The purpose of the rating system is not to suss out different kinds of fiction or determine how much science content is in fiction. It's to assess what kids at different cognitive and developmental age levels can read when in terms of language. Whether the fiction is science fiction, fantasy, mystery, etc. is irrelevant to the assessment of how easily kids of different reading skills can manage the text. Schools allow kids to read books from many different areas of fiction and compose book reading lists that contain many different kinds of fiction. They don't care if a book is fantasy or science fiction; they care about whether kids at different skills levels can read it or not so that they can help the kids learn to read better and practice reading.

Again, I don't know that trying to co-opt a system that is made for assessing reading levels is going to really work for you to try to distinguish hard science content from everything else. But you can of course try.
 
I didn't say they should. I just said what they didn't do.

But science is supposed to be part of education isn't it?

This was being said in the 50s:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/sce.3730430106/abstract

psik

Yes, that's why they have science classes in the school. Reading, writing, math, science, history/social studies, P.E., arts. To be able to learn science in the science classes, the children have to develop age appropriate reading skills in the English classes. To get them to develop age appropriate or advanced reading skills, they have them read and study fiction and non-fiction narratives. To have that work, they have to assess what level of reading skill is needed for reading a particular work of fiction or non-fiction, so that they can place books that will develop reading skills with below-average, average and above average readers for their age. Hence, the scale of the reading level for the work, which is based on age and the cognitive abilities of the kids at that age. That's why the number of syllables and letters are factors.

For scientific tools to work effectively for assessment, you have to control for variables and not include too many variables to mess up your results. (Which is why I suggested you drop the fantasy aspect and concentrate on science content for your scale.) For the reading level, the goal is to determine the reading level, so all the factors are centered on that assessment and other variables, like science content, are not included because that is not relevant for assessing the reading level. Assessing the science content of narratives is a separate and unrelated goal, a variable that isn't appropriate for their study. That's the goal of your study, whereas you are not concerned with reading levels. Every study has something that it is assessing and the results have to be able to measure that something. Try measuring a lot of other things -- variables -- and you can't get reliable results in the assessment of what you are trying to study. Reading level, science content -- two different things and two different classes.

Reading levels are involved in science classes however in terms of science books and textbooks that students are reading for science class. If the science textbooks for a third grade class are at a reading level higher than the average third grade reader's capabilities, then the science textbooks are no good for the third grade students and should only be used with older students or maybe a few advanced students. So that scale also assesses the reading level of science textbooks to see if the students can read them. It does not assess the science content of the science textbook and how good it is because the scale can't do that and that has nothing to do with the reading level. To assess the science content of the science textbook and how accurate it is and how much the average third grader can understand that content, not just read the words, uses other tests and assessment scales, in addition to reading level.

So really, you might want to go find what they use to assess the science worthiness of science textbooks, rather than bothering with reading levels, since you're most interested in adult fiction, not children's fiction. The books that you have been running through your system are not novels that are given to third graders. They are for high school or adults, most of them. So that really doesn't have to do with the curriculum for third and fourth graders or their reading levels.
 
since you're most interested in adult fiction, not children's fiction. The books that you have been running through your system are not novels that are given to third graders. They are for high school or adults, most of them. So that really doesn't have to do with the curriculum for third and fourth graders or their reading levels.

Where did I say that? How do you know what I am most interested in? How do you know what I have been running through my system? You can only know what I tell you about on this site. What 40 year-olds read isn't too likely to affect their thinking and the rest of their lives. You just like making assumptions and then projecting on that basis.

Science fiction made science more interesting than the science teachers I did not get until high school. I started reading SF at 9. This was my first book and now it is in the public domain.

Star Surgeon (1959) by Alan E. Nourse
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Surgeon-Alan-Nourse/dp/1598180657
http://manybooks.net/titles/noursea1849218492-8.html
http://librivox.org/star-surgeon-by-alan-edward-nourse/
http://www.sffaudio.com/?p=1299

It gets a science word density of 1.015 with an ATOS rating of 7.8. That is a much higher score than The Hunger Games which only got 0.062 with an ATOS score of 6.0. A basic idea that you get from SS is that physics must work the same way all over the galaxy and any technology developed by intelligent aliens must be restrained by the same Laws of Physics and probably similar to any produced by humans. That ATOS system is highly influenced by the length of sentences. The average is 14.7 for Star Surgeon but only 13.1 for Hunger Games. But there is a vast differences in the use of words involving science. Hunger Games has 17 words used 44 times while Star Surgeon uses 54, 302 times.

And none of my teachers selected or gave it to me either.

But on the education front people are now fighting over this Common Core Crap. All I have seen so far is a lot of blather that never says what a kid is supposed to understand by what grade. But people who seem to know nothing are attacking it and people who seem to know less are defending it.

What would a reading list for kids cost?

These are the 10 most used words I searched on from Hunger Games:

symptoms 1
theory 1
program 2
thrust 3
electric 4
pressure 7
brain 9 == 34

magic 1
magical 2
sword 7 == 10

These are the 10 from Star Surgeon:

galactic 6
laboratory 7
thrust 7
computer 8
oxygen 8
pressure 13
radio 17
galaxy 23
virus 48
planet 78

It doesn't even get down to the words that were only used once.

But Star Surgeon is only 300 K while Hunger Games is 553 K. So it is possible to get a lot more information in a lot less reading if the right books are selected.

American High School Students Are Reading Books At 5th-Grade-Appropriate Levels
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/22/top-reading_n_1373680.html

psik
 
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You can only know what I tell you about on this site.

Which is why people have been confused as to what exactly it is you're trying to do. So there's no point in snapping at us.

Science fiction made science more interesting than the science teachers I did not get until high school.

Yes, we know, because you've told us this many times before.

And none of my teachers selected or gave it to me either.

That's because the educational world was prejudiced against category market science fiction as trash that was not appropriate reading material for children in 1959. The Hunger Games was published into a whole different world. My daughter's school reading lists, a decade ago, were studded with SF and fantasy works.

But when the teachers are teaching elementary school children English, they are teaching them to read and write. Adding the requirement to check the science content of only some of the books -- the science fiction -- is not particularly useful to them and has nothing to do with assessing the book's reading level for the kids. Teaching them science requires science fact. Teachers in many places in the U.S. are barely allowed to teach science theory and the scientific method and even when they aren't in such counties, they barely have enough time to teach the science material they have to get through in the textbook. Having them throw in some fictional novels is not going to happen.

I've agreed with you in the past that a partially integrated curriculum, especially in elementary where one teacher does most of the courses, in which sometimes a novel in English class could be connected to what's being done in science class, is a good idea. And there are probably counties where that sort of thing is being done, formally or informally. But it is unlikely to form a standard curriculum program at the federal level, partly because it would not be very flexible for different schools to adjust to different needs.

The big issue in English class is getting kids to be able to read any type of book and any type of fiction, not just science fiction. There is fighting over a curriculum because there is always fighting over curriculum. Some people don't want certain things taught due to religious beliefs. Others fear that the curriculum isn't supporting kids who have advanced reading skills enough or leaving those below the average too far behind, or having too low a baseline for the average. There is concern that a particular curriculum teaches to tests and does not properly assess and develop skills. There are arguments over whether one book is best suited to one reading level or another and how you test it. Syllables and sentence length is a very basic measurement; there are other measurements that they use in addition to it. The assessment of these different curriculum by people is on-going and changes with the times.

But hard science content and the number of science words in the fiction used -- some of which is not science fiction or fantasy -- is never going to be a measurement for reading levels because it has nothing to do with reading skills, other than that science words are often bigger words. Whether a science fiction novel is a post-apocalyptic dystopia in which people have reverted back to the stone age and there are very few science words in it, or a space adventure about dealing with a black hole and there are lots of science words in it, doesn't effect the students' ability or not to read the book.

The argument that one SF book gives you both a certain reading level and science content, and therefore should be chosen over another SF novel for reading lists that doesn't have as many science words in it isn't going to work for them. When you are trying to get children to read, you are not going to limit them to SF novels, and you're going to provide a mix of acclaimed and popular novels, SF and other, in order to engage the kids and to expose them to writing that will help them in their reading skills. Many of the older SF novels were not written for children, but for adults. The language in them, not even counting the science words, can be difficult for children who are not advanced readers -- as you probably were at their age. The number of older SF novels therefore tends to increase when you get to the high school students' curriculum, who read a mix of some YA and a lot of adult books.

Educators in elementary school are usually using for reading lists books written specifically for children with specific traits designed to increase and develop reading skills. Harry Potter, for instance, was written for middle school children, and deliberately has repetition, rhyme, silly made-up words and names designed to teach children sounds, etc. -- things that drive adult readers crazy but help kids develop reading skills. Books for junior high and YA fiction drop the linguistic tricks but try to use more complex sentences and issues to further develop not just reading comprehension but writing skills. Many of these books are not fantasy or science fiction; some are. So again, for the main purpose of having the reading lists, hard science content and words are irrelevant.

So again, if you are trying to come up with a system to measure hard science content of a sub-section of fiction for the education system for children, it's not of much use to them. If you are trying to come up with a system to measure hard science content of a sub-section of fiction for adults and others to fine-tune their reading choices, then it might be useful to people who want that sort of information in making their reading choices. Of course ultimately this is something you are doing because you are curious and want to do it, and nothing wrong with that.
 
Yes, that's why they have science classes in the school. Reading, writing, math, science, history/social studies, P.E., arts. To be able to learn science in the science classes, the children have to develop age appropriate reading skills in the English classes.

I strongly disagree with this statement. You don't need to read or learn to read to learn science, just a good teacher to show the hows, whys and wherefores. That's how I learned to play chess long before I could read.
 
I strongly disagree with this statement. You don't need to read or learn to read to learn science, just a good teacher to show the hows, whys and wherefores. That's how I learned to play chess long before I could read.

KatG will spank you for disagreeing with her. LOL

psik
 
She isn't disagreeing with me; she's disagreeing with schools using science textbooks and other written materials past the first grade apparently. Science learning involves many things that don't involve written text, such as experiments and lab work. However, most schools have science classes in which they use at least some written materials, at age appropriate reading levels for their students. In order for students to pass the class and learn the curriculum, they have to be able to read the written materials and do written homework as well as conduct experiments and lab work and demonstrating learning orally. They have to be able to read and write in order to take most tests as most of them are written tests. So for science classes, reading is in fact something that they are concerned with and reading ability at the appropriate age level is something they require.

But the science classes do not teach reading skills. They teach science. Reading skills are taught in English class. To put together a reading curriculum for English, teachers have to have methods of evaluating works that will be learnable for the maximum number of students, with hopefully resources for students whose reading skills are advanced and students whose reading skills are delayed in comparison to the majority and average of kids their age. Syllables, word and sentence size, etc., that the database measures are to help provide guides about how readable books are for different age groups on average. Reading level and science content are two different things, two different variables. Science content of fictional works is not a concern for teaching reading. Science content of fictional works is not a concern for science classes which don't use fiction to teach the scientific method and how to run experiments. Coordination between English classes and science classes, with a fictional work used for teaching reading helping to reinforce what subject is being taught in a science class does sometimes happen in elementary grades where one teacher or set of teachers teaches all the subjects. Educational curriculums are often designed to connect subjects one to the other. (However, when you hit junior high, students are considered advanced enough not to have to do this usually and usually have different teachers for different subjects.) But the goals for each class are specific to the subject -- reading and writing for English class, science for science class. And science classes use written materials that they need their students to be able to read, as do social studies/history classes, math classes. The arts and physical education classes may require some reading of some written materials as well, though not as much.

Now, there may be a school in which the science classes use no written materials and do not require the students to ever read or write or to learn those skills for the class or for the future. But most of them don't do this.
 
I have rewritten my science and fantasy word counting program. I am sure you are all excited to hear that.

It was in C and was a pain in the ass to change. The new version is in Python and it was easier than I was expecting. This has changed results noticeably but not really significantly. Books that scored high will mostly just score a little higher. Python also makes it easier to add words to the search dictionary.

Like the word "Newton" appears twice in Clarke's A Fall of Moondust and I hadn't counted that before. C also got confused by punctuation following a word. A science word followed by a period or hyphen might not get counted because my program searched for spaces separating words.

So with all of the changes since the original version Moondust has gone from 0.976 to 1.241.

A lot of texts will have to be rerun. But Python won't put words with the same count in alphabetical order. It was hard enough just getting them in numerical order. Oh the woes of programming. :D

Technology, the bane of science fiction. LOL

psik
 
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One thing I wanted to add to the code but hadn't because C was such a pain in the ass was a count limiter. JK Rowling uses the word WAND 506 times in The Deathly Hollows. Why increase the density just because an author uses the same word again and again?

So I wanted a limit of once for every 10,000 characters. Lois Bujold uses the word CLONE a lot in Brothers in Arms and that must significantly affect the SF Density but what can be learned from reading clone over and over. That means the program would have to compute the limit on the basis of the length of the text.

So I got it working in Python. Without the limiter Brothers in Arms gets:

SF density = 0.823161277591

with the limiter it is only:

SF density = 0.62394873096

It affects other books like The Mote in God's Eye that uses the word ALIEN a lot.

SF density = 1.21008914197 instead of: SF density = 1.28132672882

by removing 75 from the count of 'alien'.

I should probably count and report how many different words are used also.

psik
 
Is there a way to upload files so other people can download them on this site?

psik
 
Is there a way to upload files so other people can download them on this site?

psik

Yup. When you respond to a post, on the Reply to Thread page, before hitting Submit Reply, scroll down a bit and you'll see Additional Options. The second option is labeled Attachments. Click on the Manage Attachments to add a document. You should get a pop-up box where you can Add Files (click that button) or attach files you have previously uploaded. Should be fairly straightforward from there. Once it is attached, then hit Submit Reply.

Does that help?
 
Gotta have a reason to BUMP.


The Importance of Hard Science Fiction
http://appliedsentience.com/2014/10...science-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-15299

Futures Dreaming: Challenges From Outside and on the Margins of the Western World
http://www.metafuture.org/Articles/Futures_Dreaming.htm

“ASPECTS OF TECHNOLOGY” IN SCIENCE FICTION TEXTS
– SCIENCE FICTION IN SCIENCE CLASSROOM: AN EMPIRICAL STUDY
http://www.esera.org/media/ebook/strand7/ebook-esera2011_STAVROU-07.pdf

ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IN SCIENCE FICTION
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...JaajsKnxc1EqayllA&sig2=cDBWLIaWAeXD1seOdEdoMg

LOL

But this one I regard as pseudo-intellectual bullsh!t.

The Needs and Demands of the Science Fiction Reader: a Sociological Perspective
http://www.mjckeh.demon.co.uk/stableford.htm

psik
 
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