Science Fiction Categories: A Proposal

The reason I dislike lists, rating systems or even characterizations is that they can't help but be subjective. It's the point of view of the person creating the list. Why a five letter rating system? Why not three or seven or twenty-eight?

I used 5 because it is not an attempt to be too detailed and having three clear examples allows the possibility of stories being between the examples. I have two stories at the extremes and one between and I said Komarr would be between #2 and #3.

This is not like the 1960s anymore. With stories available online for purchase or free the works available are in the thousands. You could spend hours just reading reviews. In fact I have done it. Years ago I downloaded a sci-fi torrent just to see what it was. There were more than 5,000 works in a DVD sized torrent. Nobody has time to read all of this stuff. So how do you QUICKLY find stuff that you have a high probability of liking?

The subjectivity is just too muddy. That is why I selected short stories as archetypes so anyone could know the references and I am only using the presentation of the science in the stories as the evaluated characteristic. They vary significantly in other ways.

Curiously no one has reported reading any of the stories but there is lots of criticism of the evaluation concept. It is as though people don't want to even think about reducing the confusion. Not very scientific but it does remind me of C. P. Snow's culture conflict and I really like how Kurt Vonnegut brought that up in 1965.

http://sites.google.com/site/zscslaughterhousefive/reading-plan/week-4-science-fiction

psik
 
I have edited the OP for greater clarity but left the original version below for comparison.

psik
 
You obviously have some very strong opinions about what Science Fiction should be. All the science should be realistic and intelligently portrayed and comprehensible. Yet to many, many others if you have interstellar travel, some spaceships and a couple of ray guns, you have Science Fiction. My personal preference is somewhere in the middle but that opinion is subjective also.

I am not saying what science fiction should be I am just saying it should be easy and fast to find what characteristics a particular science fiction work has. Especially since this technology has made it easier and cheaper for us to be flooded out with the stuff.

I don't understand why so many people object to that. And then come up with misleading excuses for objecting.

psik
 
if categorize the objections do you think that might help you?

what if we provide three example reviews that we found useful? :D
 
if categorize the objections do you think that might help you?

what if we provide three example reviews that we found useful? :D

If there were THOUSANDS of objections then that might be relevant. Do you have any info on how many science fiction novels, novellas and short stories there might be? Are there tens of thousands of people that the information might be useful to?

psik
 
People that know science don't tend to be good writers and the good writers don't tend to know science.

One's a left brain finction, and the other is a right brain. That's why the ones that can blend the two successfully are so cherished.
 
I used 5 because it is not an attempt to be too detailed and having three clear examples allows the possibility of stories being between the examples. I have two stories at the extremes and one between and I said Komarr would be between #2 and #3.

This is not like the 1960s anymore. With stories available online for purchase or free the works available are in the thousands. You could spend hours just reading reviews. In fact I have done it. Years ago I downloaded a sci-fi torrent just to see what it was. There were more than 5,000 works in a DVD sized torrent. Nobody has time to read all of this stuff. So how do you QUICKLY find stuff that you have a high probability of liking?

The subjectivity is just too muddy. That is why I selected short stories as archetypes so anyone could know the references and I am only using the presentation of the science in the stories as the evaluated characteristic. They vary significantly in other ways.

Curiously no one has reported reading any of the stories but there is lots of criticism of the evaluation concept. It is as though people don't want to even think about reducing the confusion. Not very scientific but it does remind me of C. P. Snow's culture conflict and I really like how Kurt Vonnegut brought that up in 1965.

http://sites.google.com/site/zscslaughterhousefive/reading-plan/week-4-science-fiction

psik

Sure there are tons of stories out there with more being added every day. Agree that many of them might have tons of reviews. But I still don't see how your system makes it any easier or clearer; particularly if we need to read your three short stories to "understand" what you are talking about (I did. Yes #3 has some hard science in it). None of that explains your five letter scoring systems. Does each letter actually mean something? Yes I know, AAAAA is perfect and EEEEE is dreck but what's the difference between ADBCB and BACBD? It's like yet another list of the top 50,000 Science Fiction stories of all time (so is #3257 really better than #3258? Do we really care at this point?).
And who gets to be the Grand Pooba who decrees these various levels of characterizations of all the Science Fiction ever produced; regardless of how much hard science it contains or if we learn anything from it. Who really has the time to wade through every story ever written calling itself Science Fiction to make this determination? Who's to say whether one person's AAAAA isn't another person's EEEEE? It may be quick but personally I just don't find it very useful unless I know why a reviewer (or group of reviewers for that matter) choses the ratings they did. Again, it's too subjective.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy learning a new fact or two from the stories I read and hard Science Fiction doesn't put me off as long as it's entertaining, well-written and doesn't require me to stop and research every other page; but that is not why I read novels of any kind, Science Fiction or otherwise. I read them for my own personal enjoyment. Selfish perhaps but true.
Honestly I found that after I joined this website and hung around long enough, I found others with similiar tastes to my own and would try some of the books they read and posted reviews about. The result has been generally much better than just trying things due to the dust cover on the back. It also gives me a chance to try out new authors that I haven't read before (I'm going to check out Bujold due to some favorable comments from you and others). That works for me but I am not suggesting that everyone do likewise. If a five letter rating system makes your life easier then go for it. To me it's meaningless at this point but I like that you are passonate enough about it to keep arguing. :)
 
To me it's meaningless at this point but I like that you are passionate enough about it to keep arguing.
It's one of psik's own hobbyhorses, which he has mentioned many, many, many times at SFFWorld.

M.
 
Why bother grading a book by how good it is anyway? As has already been said, one persons AAAAA is another persons EEEEE.

Instead select five to ten components of SF stories and grade the book by how much it contains these components. For example component 1 could be science, 'A' meaning lots of seemingly coherent and logical explanation to 'H' meaning science is firmly in the background. Component 2 could be aliens, 'A' meaning detailed physiology/motivations to 'H' for generic tentacled monstrosities.

I've no idea what the best combination of components would be but, instead of selecting a book by it's subjective reviews, you can select a book because you know it contains exactly your favourite combination of components.

Of course it still doesn't mean it's well written but it does make it more likely you'll finish it.

I call it the Chuffalump Component Category Cataloguing system. Or C4 for short. Hopefully this isn't copyrighted. :D anyone know a smiley for tongue in cheek?
 
Why bother grading a book by how good it is anyway? As has already been said, one persons AAAAA is another persons EEEEE.

Instead select five to ten components of SF stories and grade the book by how much it contains these components. For example component 1 could be science, 'A' meaning lots of seemingly coherent and logical explanation to 'H' meaning science is firmly in the background. Component 2 could be aliens, 'A' meaning detailed physiology/motivations to 'H' for generic tentacled monstrosities.

I've no idea what the best combination of components would be but, instead of selecting a book by it's subjective reviews, you can select a book because you know it contains exactly your favourite combination of components.

Of course it still doesn't mean it's well written but it does make it more likely you'll finish it.

I call it the Chuffalump Component Category Cataloguing system. Or C4 for short. Hopefully this isn't copyrighted. :D anyone know a smiley for tongue in cheek?

I am not talking about Grading a book by how GOOD it is. I am talking about grading individual characteristics of a book by how it is TREATED. At the moment I am only discussing ONE CHARACTERISTIC. Others can be added later. I supplied three examples and pointed out they were only being used for the treatment of the character of the SCIENCE in the story.

So if no one has read any of them then I don't see how they can criticise much. People just seem to be making generalized disparagements of any kind of analysis. I do find that VERY curious for people claiming they like SCIENCE Fiction.

I suppose those three stories could be used for alien rating also but I think more variety would need to be specified for that.

psik
 
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Well, that's kind of rude, psikey. :) You're insisting that people download three electronic story files (and for those of us who just had to pay extra per month for bandwidth or can't pay for it, or aren't set up to easily take ePub files, that's a problem,) and read all three of them just to get an inkling of what you're trying to talk about.

But I don't think we really have to do that, as you tend to talk about the same talking point. I don't have a problem with that talking point per se -- judging stories by how they handle science; though the insistence that we all should do it gets a tad annoying. (And the obsession with Star Wars, which has played a minimum role in SF writing, mostly in sending readers into the field, I don't get.) I do have more of a problem with the idea that the 1950's SF was full of good science. Overall, it was filled with a lot of crappy science with occasional good stories from those who knew what they were doing. But elaborate details of science seldom occurred. As you mentioned, science concepts often got just a mention, which would cause you to check out the real science in an encyclopedia. Most SF stories in the past were not about science concepts and the science was in the background. Our harder SF tackled science more directly, but often in inaccurate, bendy ways to get at the story.

For instance, that short story about the stowaway girl being thrown out of the space shuttle. Yes, it was about fuel mass ratios, but the story tackled the issue in a very illogical manner. The story was about a politically dystopian society that did not value human life, and it bent circumstances so that an illogical solution to the physics problem that would result in death was the one chosen, instead of other, more logical emergency tactics -- a sociological premise, not a scientific one. It was an unrealistic story in that the shuttles did not have proper emergency failsafes and redundancies for just these sort of problems and damages to the ship. Emotionally, it was a very interesting story. Scientifically, it was poorly crafted, in my opinion.

And that becomes a complicated issue. Bujold, for instance, throws in mention of cloning and such. It's a plot point in one book. But her stories are basically political military thrillers. The science is background, not premise. Is she really doing science in an accurate or prominent way? So I guess you would put her in the one category. Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars we were talking about again, and the fact that it, like the short story about the stowaway girl, has unrealistic set-ups in it to get the political and ideological issues it wants to tackle, the sense of a frontier, and also some science situations that are quite dodgy. The science in Red Mars plays a prominent role in the story but not the central role, which is more given over to politics. Yet we still consider it hard SF, even though the science is not perfect, the world created not that realistic and the central concept about politics, not science, because the story involves hard science -- biology, some engineering.

Is a cyberpunk book that concentrates on electrical technology -- engineering -- hard science? Is a story hard SF when it centers on political issues, not solving a scientific problem? Is Isaac Asimov's post-apocalypse story, Nightfall, which is primarily about sociological and psychological issues of the people who are fighting with each other and trying to survive when night falls on their sun-filled planet really about the science, or is the basic science just an excuse to have people running and screaming? Is a SF story about people who can radically alter their bodies and how that effects them not dealing with a hard science concept that is directly relevant to our current world? Can we call A Canticle for Liebowitz, another post-apocalypse story that has very little actual science in it beyond some slide rules, nukes and giant computers, (but it does have terrific writing,) and instead is concentrated on the self-destructive and creative urges of humans to build societies and pass knowledge a hard science story? Clarke's 2001 also has very little science in it, though it does have mega powerful aliens and an upset computer. It's about the ambitions of humans versus the enormousness of the universe. It did, however, inspire the design look of tablet computers in the movie, which came first, so there you go. But we didn't get a complete break down of how those devices worked, because it was simply background.

So it's not a simple thing to grade, the science content. The science does not exist in a vacuum. The science is rarely central over political, social and personal and philosophical concepts, but can be the set-up for exploring those or emeshed in them. Our SF stories, in the 1950's and now, have been much more about how we react to science and feel about science than about the bones of the scientific devices or events themselves. That reaction is possible even in a story where the science is highly speculative or loosely in the background as the spaceships ply their trade.

When we know that science in a story is off, bent, not realistically applied, that may effect our experience of the story, but it may not invalidate it. Despite having some science and science set-up objections to Red Mars, I still find it an interesting story, and many others regard it as a seminal hard SF work. We may, according to our preferences, be more focused on stories that emphasize physics and engineering and not like ones that are biologically based, even though that is also hard science. We may like a military space saga, even though the science involved is no more than a passing mention or occasional plot device. We may find that science to be more or less important, depending on our enjoyment of the story.

So science alone, for me, makes a poor component for grading anything. Larry Niven can give me a scientifically accurate breakdown of how the Ringworld exists, but that doesn't change the fact that the main story is a personal and political one, involving religion and attachment, that those societies on the Ringworld are not very convincingly rendered (although they are somewhat satiric,) and that some of the science points are tetchy. The science in that story is set-up, but it is hard sciences. So I have no interest in trying to isolate the science content in stories and evaluate on that alone. If I did, then 90% of the SF written in the 20th century would probably fail to make the grade, including works by Asimov, Clarke, Clements and the rest. I do not make any one component of writing -- science content or other content, characterization, prose styling, plot requirements, etc. -- my god when it comes to stories. That limits too much where I can go.
 
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Well, that's kind of rude, psikey. :) You're insisting that people download three electronic story files (and for those of us who just had to pay extra per month for bandwidth or can't pay for it, or aren't set up to easily take ePub files, that's a problem,) and read all three of them just to get an inkling of what you're trying to talk about.

How do anyone insist that someone do something over the Internet?

The issue is not the download, the issue is the time they take to read. Although if you download the audiobooks then download time may become a more significant issue.

But presumably people on this site read science fiction for fun anyway. So unless they think I am giving them crappy stories to read what is the big deal? I said one was nominated for a Hugo, so what better endorsement can I give than that? I did give short descriptions of the differences in how the science is presented between the three works but how can I do a better job of that than pointing out the actual works?

Do you want the Librivox links?

http://www.archive.org/download/short_scifi_006_0811_librivox/catandmouse_williams_blb_64kb.mp3

http://www.archive.org/download/short_scifi_028_0910_librivox/servantproblem_young_64kb.mp3

http://www.archive.org/download/short_scifi_016_0905_librivox/alldayseptember_kuykendall_bt_64kb.mp3

As far as I can tell I am just getting objections to any kind of system for a quick evaluation of any aspect of SF.

But I don't think we really have to do that, as you tend to talk about the same talking point. I don't have a problem with that talking point per se -- judging stories by how they handle science; though the insistence that we all should do it gets a tad annoying.

Oh yeah, it's all my fault that the term science fiction has the word science in it. :lol:

Like I said, how can anybody insist on anything over the Internet. I would assume that anybody that did not give a damn just would not respond. If people don't care about what I am saying why are they responding to this thread at all? Nobody can make anyone pay attention to what they don't care about over the net. I do wonder why they waste their time telling me they don't care about any rating system. I could figure that out from a lack of response.

But what about all of the people who don't really care about science fiction in general but will occasionally read the stuff, especially grade school kids? When I read my first SF book I didn't have a clue what science was in it. I just knew it was about an alien that wanted to be a doctor. But if you look at reviews today they say the story is about racism. I didn't know that when I bought the book but I picked up on it when I read it. The blurb back then did not point that out.

http://everreading.com/blog/2012/03/20/free-scifi-ebook-star-surgeon-review/

(And the obsession with Star Wars, which has played a minimum role in SF writing, mostly in sending readers into the field, I don't get.)

I'll show you obsession. :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmxxpvwSXXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ntDYjS0Y3w

So science alone, for me, makes a poor component for grading anything.
I already said that those stories are used as examples for different treatments of the science in SF and that OTHER CHARACTERISTICS would have to be rated separately and quite likely with different stories as examples. So again someone is complaining about what I am saying by ignoring some of what I am saying, apparently because some particular thing I have said sticks in their craw.

psik
 
Well, it's quite simple to me. It's a dumb idea, not practical and no one but you seems to want to do it. So why don't you just drop it instead of continuing to prod people to agree with you and posting the same sort of messages in every thread on the site that even has a remote connection to this silly idea. That's what's annoying and 'insistent' about your postings.
 
Sure there are tons of stories out there with more being added every day. Agree that many of them might have tons of reviews. But I still don't see how your system makes it any easier or clearer; particularly if we need to read your three short stories to "understand" what you are talking about (I did. Yes #3 has some hard science in it). None of that explains your five letter scoring systems. Does each letter actually mean something? Yes I know, AAAAA is perfect and EEEEE is dreck but what's the difference between ADBCB and BACBD?

The 5 letters assumes that 5 different characteristics are being evaluated.

In the OP I am only talking about one characteristic, the treatment of the science. So that would be represented by ONE letter.

Cat and Mouse would get an E. And alien uses what today we would probably call a Stargate but the alien never even names it. The human who finds it just calls it a door to another world.

The Servant Problem also uses a Stargate but the aliens provide a human with the parts and instructions and give it a name. Later a human scientist speculates about what it did using a Mobius Strip as an analogy. But of course there is still no real scientific explanation in terms of known science. It is quite likely impossible. So this story would get a C.

All Day September is just a Lunar colony with rockets and turbines and water found on the Moon. But though the story was written in 1959, water actually was found on the Moon in 2009. So off the top of my head The only thing that might be wrong is where the prospector found the ice. There may be no geological formation like that on the Moon. But then there may be, we still have not explored much of it. And this story would get an A.

But of these 3 stories I like number 2 the best so I am not saying hard science must make a story the bes I am just saying the reader should be able to know about that aspect from some specification before reading it.

psik
 
Well, it's quite simple to me. It's a dumb idea, not practical and no one but you seems to want to do it. So why don't you just drop it instead of continuing to prod people to agree with you and posting the same sort of messages in every thread on the site that even has a remote connection to this silly idea. That's what's annoying and 'insistent' about your postings.

Then what is your explanation for this post?

http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=683383&postcount=31

And so why don't you just stop reading an posting to this thread? It is not like I will miss you.

psik
 
I suspect that I am on psikeyhackr's side in this. I think that it is the duty of a science fiction author to create a “plausible” world. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what “plausible” means. Obviously I like authors like Egan or Reynolds but I also happily swallow various methods of FTL. Unfortunately, I find myself starting to say “this is very silly” and stopping reading some stories. Examples include “Hunter's Run” by Daniel Abraham, Gardner Dozois and George R. R. Martin and “The Reality Dysfunction” by Peter F. Hamilton. Thus I would like a warning in reviews to stop me wasting money on stories that I won't finish.
 
Examples include “Hunter's Run” by Daniel Abraham, Gardner Dozois and George R. R. Martin and “The Reality Dysfunction” by Peter F. Hamilton. Thus I would like a warning in reviews to stop me wasting money on stories that I won't finish.

ROFL

That is what I did with Reality Dysfunction.

I quit after the trip up the river when they were just learning what they were fighting.

It is not that the story was bad, in fact it was somewhat exciting. But it just went on and on and seemed to be pointless and not make a lot of sense. But that seems to be all a lot of readers want, "excitement". So how good or bad the science is, is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to them. They just want to be able to call it Science Fiction and that just requires some outside of current technology tropes. Not tropes that make sense.

Having to wade through all of this stuff with no guidelines when there is so much more of it and the readership has changed since before Star Wars. That is why I pick on Star Wars. That seems to be the transition point though I do not think it is solely responsible.

It is because of Star Wars that Star Trek was brought back. There was talk of a Trek movie before SW but it was that financial success that made them get off their butts. So Terminator, Aliens, Robocop etc swamped the sci-fi scientific psyche created by SF books. Now we have anime, graphic novels, comic book movies and it is all called science fiction. The people making money on the stuff do not care about any science even when it is used to make cool and exciting special effects.

I would still like to see a good explanation of how the 3-D effects of Avatar were so good from a flat screen. I still have the glasses. LOL

But the human race still has to make decisions in the real world about what to do with this science and technology. How are a bunch of dummies supposed to do that besides being led by the nose.
psik
 
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I suspect that I am on psikeyhackr's side in this. I think that it is the duty of a science fiction author to create a “plausible” world. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what “plausible” means. Obviously I like authors like Egan or Reynolds but I also happily swallow various methods of FTL. Unfortunately, I find myself starting to say “this is very silly” and stopping reading some stories. Examples include “Hunter's Run” by Daniel Abraham, Gardner Dozois and George R. R. Martin and “The Reality Dysfunction” by Peter F. Hamilton. Thus I would like a warning in reviews to stop me wasting money on stories that I won't finish.

And this "rating system" would not do that unfortunately because it is only one-dimensional.

I agree completely with you that it's the writer's job to create a plausible world, that's the whole point of any fiction to get the reader to buy in to the situation and what you describe can happen with any story or novel regardless of whether is any of the multitude of sub-genres of SF or Mainstream. I had exactly what you describe happen in many books in may genres from literary to sf to fantasy to horror to mainstream. It has nothing to do with the "science" being real it has to do with the reader's expectations and the writers presentation. Sometimes it is just not well handled by the writer and sometimes it is a miss-match in expectations.

SF is a very broad genre that includes every thing from totally strict/hard SF to speculation of supernatural and that's okay. It's easy enough to to "get" this from reading reviews, blurbs, and sample chapters in most cases. It's never going to be perfect and if it were then we would all be less well off for it.
 
ROFL

That is what I did with Reality Dysfunction.
...

psik

This mention and the ranking in the other thread "Top 50 Sci-Fi"

lead me to check this book out on Amazon. After no more than 2 minutes reading the publisher blurb and the reviews I immediately knew it was not for me, regardless of the science content or not (which I'm guessing is pretty minimal, nonexistent or hand-waving/magic/fantasy). :D

P.S. similar reviews on Goodreads. :)
 
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