Sex in Fantasy

Lani

Guarded by the Moon
Joined
Aug 5, 2000
Messages
585
I was reading the other thread about sex in aSoIaF and it made me think. Even though a whole lot of people posted examples of fantasy books that have sexual scenes, somehow fantasy mostly strikes me as a genre that doesn't include that much sex. I would say that it's more likely to encounter sex-related themes in any other adult genre than fantasy. Maybe that is so because many of the fantasy books are actually not only written for adults, but for younger people too. Do you think I'm right?
 
The closest I have come to "sex-in fantasy" is the Piers Anthony, Magic of Xanth novels. Unless you want to count the rape scenes in Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant, The Unbeleiver" series. The only other thing I've come across, is a Robert L. Asprin article, that said don't put a menstuating woman on a stallion, b/c it will try to "ride" her, but that is just fact, not fiction (according to him).
 
Right now im reading The Demon King by Chris Bunch and there is soooo much sex its not funny. The detail is graphic as well.. there are threesomes and 'backend' action too for those that are interested.. sort of like a porno book, with some military fantasy weaved around it... hehe, ok maybe not that bad, but those that have read it will testify its definately not for the younger readers..
 
As with violence and 'bad' language, sex has its place in every genre but it has to be relevant to the story. If it isn't, it's gratuitous and readers have to make their own minds up what is and isn't acceptable to them.

I think there's plenty of 'sex' in fantasy but, for the most part, it's handled sensitvely enough not to provoke comment. And that, if you see what I mean, is a comment in itself.
 
There is definitely sex in fantasy and the comments thus far seem apropos. In looking back at Tolkien, however, I must admit it certainly seems to me that the author paid particular attention not to mention it at all, except in Middle Ages/Middle Earth terms where relationships were only hinted at, never explored. Undoubtedly the author was thinking of younger readers, but I don't know it for a fact.
 
I think I read somewhere that tolkien when he was growing up and in his sosial life was surrounded by only men, and this is reflected in his litterature where women are all unreachable godesses.
 
The only other thing I've come across, is a Robert L. Asprin article, that said don't put a menstuating woman on a stallion, b/c it will try to "ride" her, but that is just fact, not fiction (according to him).


Nope. Nay. Non-fact. Wouldn't happen.
We have several horses back home, including really potent stallions there, who have no interest what-so-ever with women with periods.

As to sex in fantasy. I can't really say that in Fantasy there's less sex than in any other genre. It's theme and an added spice that's a normal part of human existance and therefore writer's write sex-scenes into books. (Sorry about not really saying anything here
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I wonder how much of the lack of fantasy has to do with the author, the editor or the publisher.

The demographics also do tend to place fantasy as a fringe young adult genre regardless of the content. That is changing certainly, but fantasy is still seen as wizards, dwarves dragons and elves with pointy ears.

And let's face it. Tolkien is one of the foundations of fantasy. His writing became a huge success in a time when sexual express was entering its 'free and open' stage. And yet Tolkien wrote from a society that seems repressed by our standards. And his style worked. So few were going to mess with a good thing.

Goodkind, Martin, Carey, Pinto, and Bishop all deal with sex in an open and/or explicit manner. Goodkind I won't go into. Martin treats sex as a weapon or a sin or a burden for the most part. Which is somewhat true in the society and culture he has created. But he sometimes falls prey to the 'Look SEX!' syndrome that Goodkind revels in. Bishop seems to just revel in writing out her own fantasies. Carey and Pinto both do a marvelous job of incorproating sexual themes in their stories.

I would imagine that as fantasy broadens and society becomes a bit more jaded, sex willbe a bit more prevalent.
 
JohnH... I have to ask.

Why do you say 'Goodkind I won't go into'?

My opinion is... that of all the authors to use sex in fantasy, his is not gratutious... it is an integral part of the tale. Either as a weapon, or as a means to make a point.

I agree that he is explicit.

Jordan and sex... has Rand lost his virginity yet?
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Goodkind's use of sex is no more gratuitous than blowing up as many things as possible is in a Bruckheimer film. At least in my opinion. Goodkind always seemed to force sex into the plot and it came off as rather immature writing. Rather clumsy and heavy handed. More like something that Fabio would grace the cover of in some places. That and the fact that sexual deviance ran rampant in his villains. Perhaps he has changed; I stopped reading several books ago. Certainly I do not agree with your perception of Goodkind's writing. Sex or otherwise. Goodkind makes sex integral is definately something I do not agree with.

As for Rand? He has lost his virginity and taken the virginity of two others just for good measure.
 
Gotta agree with Dennizm. GK's use of sex is undeniably explicit but definitely integral to the books. I actually felt the sexual themes were very well handled. I can see some people disliking the Kahlan-Richard relationship being overly idealistic (even if I don't agree,) but I don't think that's a valid criticism of his use of sex. But, all to their own.
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Sex is definitely a part of any convincing world. Some fantasy is written for youth and perhaps sex would be inappropriate in those books. For adult readers, however, pretending that sex isn't pertinent just makes the world seem that much less convincing IMO. I expect that we will see more of the approach used by the Goodkinds and Martins in dealing with this in future. In fact, another author that uses sex powerfully (and if you think GK has shock value then I suggest you stay away) is Paul Kearney.
 
I would have to say that Martin was my first encounter (I think) with sex playing an integral role in the fantasy genre. I may be wrong, but my theory on this is that, as we deal with more realistic character portrayals, sex will continue to increase in prominence in fantasy.

Martin strikes me as a fantasy writer that really develops his characters in a way that Tolkein and his era of fantasy writers didn't. As fantasy moves from its old (and often still-used) position of good vs evil as external forces, or "sides", to a position where good and evil reside within each character (even if in varying degrees), I think we'll see a more realistic portrayal of characters. This, in turn, means that sex can no longer be ignored. When Martin is showing us that good and evil reside in all, he uses sex as part of this aim. Who could have guessed that we would start changing our attitude to Jaime partly because of what we learn about his attitude to sex with Cersei? It changes from something perverted and wrong into something misguided and pitiable. What we learn about Jaime, and our increased identification with him, is intimately connected to sex. So I certainly wouldn't label Martin's use of sex as gratuitous. The reason I use Martin as an example is that I think he's a master of the complex portrayal of characters, something that (I feel) was lacking from earlier fantasy writing.

On a connected note, this sort of use of character development is leading to an increased acceptance of fantasy as literature and respectable writing (something I've been fighting to have recognised for a long time now!). This means the adult readership will increase, which makes sex a more acceptable aspect of the books.

But as I said, this is just my theory, and I don't claim that there is necessarily any truth in it!!!
 
Realism is rapidly moving into the realm of fantasy. What a sentence
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Now, I all for diversifying, I have no problem with that. I love new ideas as well as new interpretations of old ones and the current trend of bringing the gritty realism to the Old High fantasy surroundings is just fine and dandy.
There is nothing that "new" about it of course, but the current popularity and even perhaps the raise of literary standard is a very Good thing indeed. (I hope fervently that GRRM finishes his serie soon or else... I'm not gonna read it when it matters.)
All this is - even more hopefully - leading to better writing and therefore, better books. Lot of the stuff written and published is OK-fun-to-read entertainment, but still marginally literate. A pitifully small amount of different and truly great writers are around, but it's still just a fraction of the field.

Now, to sex.
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Sex is a part of the big equation of life and can be an important piece in a story. Some writers can handle it well, some don't. Some are worse than bad. Good books have tepid and plain bad sex-scenes and then there's something like Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule, where the rest of the book is equivalent of 12-year-old wanna-be purple-fantasy of dull cliché after another (my opinion), but with a surprisingly well-written S/M-scene in the end part of it.
Kearney was a good example, but I was thinking of Mary Gentle and her ASH. Now there is some truly great scenes of arousing and well-written sex. From very different points of views. Some of them are truly horrifying and some just plain steaming with #"%/&%½!
Jacqueline Carey and Kushiel's Dart anyone? One of the biggest theme's (maybe the most important one) is domination and masochism. But even though the various sexual encounters are very graphic and explicit, they are also very beautiful. Very well done and the writing in general is also very good.
Another one with a lot of S/M in SF/F is John Norman with his Gor-books. Here's the complete opposite. Those are pure hack-writing, horribly bad writing with atrociously lame dialogue. Now there's very little explicit sex, but a friend of mine, who's openly admitted masocist, told me that Norman's S/M is VERY arousing and well-done.
I can't argue with that. To me it looks and sounds boring as hell, but apparently it's very much like a real thing to some practicioners of S/M.

Another point that came to my mind, is something that bothers me often. People mistake "telling all" to be better than "leaving some things unsaid". Imagination plays the biggest part to me. It's my part of the Fantasy we "create" with the author of a book. What I see on those pages and how does that translates in my mind. There are numerous fantasy writers, who leave nothing to the care of your own imagination, who painstakingly write down every little detail, as if that would somehow make it all better. It certainly makes them thicker.
It's same with sex. On occasion, the graphic version serves a certain purpose. Sometimes it's all better off when left to your active imagination, where all of the fun really takes place in the end.
 
mundanemies,

I have to agree with your take on Kushiel's Dart. It was an incredibly written book; moving and sensual and disturbing in all the right places. I bought the book with trepidation after having read Anne Bishop's books that aim for a slightly similar approach. But found to my delight that Carey writes for and like an adult and wirtes about characters who are sexual and sensual beings as well some many other facets. Bishop just writes about characters having sex; in a very childish way (the determination to shock -- every scene seemed to be filled with a naughty giggle in the background).

Goodkind writes in the same way, imo. It has nothing to do with Richard and Kahlan. But rather that Goodkind writes about characters having sex as opposed to characters who are sexual beings. Not sure if this makes sense or not. But the sex seems motivated more by a need to put in a sex scene than not. Writing about sex is not well done <u>just</u> because you go into graphic detail. Especially since Goodkind is so determined to portray two characters in love not just lust.

Martin on the other had writes about characters who for the most part have sex happen to them. His approach to incest was interesting and well done. Though it would have been interesting to treat the incest as a cultural phenomenon since he had established that in his world already instead of adopting the taboos of our own society.

One of the reason I like both Pinto and Tarr. Both are welling to take on 'incest' and allow that it is not going to be forbidden, evil or wrong in all societies. Tarr and Pinto both seeming to take influence from the Achaemenidae of Persia.

Not that I believe incest is good btw! (just for the record) Rather that certain social taboos need not be taboo in a fantasy world.
 
The rape scene in "Thomas Covenant" was mentioned but no one has mentioned the sex in Donaldson's other series "The Gap". This turned me off so much I never read the second book. That said the best sex by a science fiction/fantasy writer (tho not exactly a science fiction book--maybe kinda fantasy) is in Margaret and I, a very clever book by Kate Wilhelm.
 
Janet:

As far as I can remember(correct me if i'm wrong) but the first couple of books in "The Gap" had quite a lot of sex scenes, some a bit unusual, but after that it got much better. It has been a while since I read the series, but in the second half of it, I was enthralled.
Maybe it's worth another look?

Gerard.

By the way, it shouldn't put you off other science fiction works, as really not many of them concentrate on sex. (L. Ron Hubbard being an exception!)
 
Gerard,
I've read some of L. Ron Hubbard's science fiction (Battlefield Earth, and the Mission Earth series) and thought they were fun reads, real page turners. Don't remember any sex in them though. I'll take your suggestion to revisit the Gap series: I am definitely NOT a prude and and am a big fan of fantasy and SF, but I recall thinking at the time that the book was in incredibly poor taste. J
 

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