The BIG FAT THEORY of BIG FAT FANTASY

[Scott Bakker]

Aldarion, who has to be one of the best read and brightest people in the genre, has been digesting some weighty thoughts on the origin and significance of epic fantasy, so I thought I'd better prepare a porcelain bowl for him!

The idea here is to suspend our commitment to as many assumptions as possible, and to simply look at this strange and seemingly all-conquering genre in a manner that opens possibilities rather than closing them down.

How does epic fantasy fit into the Big Picture? What historical influences gave rise to it? What contemporary needs does it answer to? Why is it a 'degraded' literary category? Is there a Big Fat Fantasy gene, or are social conditions to blame? What is the psychology of epic fantasy? Or for that matter, it's economics, politics, ethics, sociology - or even physics? What would Freud say? Or how about Heidegger, Adorno, Popper, Foucault or Wittgenstein? What would alien anthropologists watching from orbit think?

What would your mother say?

 

[AuntiePam]

Does it have to be that complicated?

I don't like all fat fantasy, but when I find a series with a world (or worlds) that I like, with engaging characters, I get comfortable, and I want more of it.

Fantasy fans have Martin, Tolkien, et al., mystery fans have Stephanie Plum, James Lee Burke, John D. MacDonald, romance fans have the Outlander books, general fiction readers have The Forsyte Saga and Emile Zola's Les Rougon Macquart family, horror has King's Dark Tower books, with the tie-in novels, SF has Hyperion.

Same concept -- the books are like real life people and places that you return to because you've been treated well and had a good time while visiting there.

 

[Priestvyrce]

What would alien anthropologists watching from orbit think?

With our luck, we probably have grad students as alien obsevers and they're probably to busy having keggers.

 

[Scott Bakker]

With our luck, we probably have grad students as alien obsevers and they're probably to busy having keggers.

That would explain Roswell...

 

[Rob B]

With our luck, we probably have grad students as alien obsevers and they're probably to busy having keggers.

I really miss kegs and doing keg-stands—aaah the days of having keggers and living within walking distance to 4 or 5 great bars….

Seriously though how does Epic Fantasy fit into the big picture?

I think it fits many sections of the big picture and has different meanings for different people. (that’s the no-duh answer)

I think Epic Fantasy fits into a lot of the same role as Comic Books (in terms of the Superhero genre) do – that is, a sense of society attempting to create myths for our own era, myths to give coherent meaning to the parts of the world we cannot otherwise understand. Writers mine various histories and myths to come up with their stories, the cultures they present and the characters they create. From the time early man took to painting on the walls of caves, there has been an inherent need, a form of the collective unconscious that seeks to understand the world around us through stories, and very often to explain why things occur they way they do. Why fire works, why the sky turns dark for part of the day, and ultimately why we are here on this world.

Once we start getting into why we are here, we try to understand who put us here. If we are the top of the food chain, should there be anything higher than us? Those stories involve creatures of a higher intelligence serving as the higher order of the world, in essence some form of god.

Many early societies have their own creation myths, just look at any of book on World Mythology and there are different interpretations of how man came to the world. Consequently, there are also many myths of how civilization ends. Life and death, good and bad, dark and light, these are conflicts, both externally and internally that have been going on since man could formulate thought, and Epic Fantasy, as a metaphor, often is an extrapolation of this conflict, on a grand scale, where the fate of the world (or some metaphor for the grand scheme of things) is in the balance. I know that is a simple summation, and doesn’t speak for EVERY Epic Fantasy out there, but to me, that’s a big part of it in a nutshell. Throw in the down-to-earth everyman character going through this journey, and you get your kitchen-boy turned savior. Again, that’s an oversimplification and only part of it.

I'm not an expert, by any means on sociological ideas and theories, philosophical ideas and how they relate to religion, but I think one reason Epic Fantasy is such a viable form of entertainment and reading is because there, at least in the US, is no single unified religion. Sure our country was based, in part, on Judeo-Christian principles, but I've gotta believe that a part of the appeal of the genre is a lack of faith by many people. I’m not saying there aren’t people who practice their religion religiously and read Epic Fantasy, but there is a correlation there—in both cases people trying to reconcile the world at large that they DO NOT understand through means which they can understand.

And all this while being entertained

I’ve got more to say on this, and I’ve probably garbled it a bit, but that’s my off-the cuff response to the first question.

 

[Luke_B]

I think we are socialised into reading epic fantasy. Most readers of fantasy seem to have followed the pattern of reading Tolkien when very young, then gotten into gaming, and ultimately conditioning themselves with the genre tropes (even though I know there will be a choir of posts protesting this). Therefore, as Fitz says, it's entertainment. You guys lost me on the appeal of epic fantasy thread. The views and heady level of discussion was amazing and I enjoyed it very much. But I can't see even half the erudition you guys spoke of in that thread in the fat fantasy being published these days. Even the best stuff, like Martin, seems to really only be writing out of sheer love for character and story.

EDIT: Sorry, I realise this post probably isn't in the spirit of No-Dog's thread.

 

[Larry]

Right now, I hate you all! Only because I've been awake over 18 hours and I'm needing to stay awake another hour or two so I can get back to a "normal" sleep pattern for the grueling 16 straight hours of work I have from 3PM-7AM CDT.

So I'll reply better in a day or two? Right now, I can tell there's the potential for some very interesting discussions. Thanks, No-Dog, for starting this and I am almost blushing (except I rarely ever do that) from the compliments. Now I have to live up to those statements. Fun times ahead, huh?

 

[Larry]

With our luck, we probably have grad students as alien obsevers and they're probably to busy having keggers.

Not only that, you're stuck having grad students (or former grad students who've completed their studies) critiquing not just the beer funneling and keg standing techniques, but also their significance to the Decline of Western Civilization (a movie I've been meaning to see for about 10 years now and somehow haven't!)

 

[Scott Bakker]

I think one reason Epic Fantasy is such a viable form of entertainment and reading is because there, at least in the US, is no single unified religion.

Let me try to recap, Fitz: myth is the cultural expression of humanity's need to understand their place in the social and cosmic orders through narrative, and epic fantasy is the modern expression of this self-same need, driven (in part) by the contemporary fragmentation of traditional institutions of myth-making. Would that be fair?

If so, it actually contrasts quite sharply with Monosyllabik's:

I think we are socialised into reading epic fantasy. Most readers of fantasy seem to have followed the pattern of reading Tolkien when very young, then gotten into gaming, and ultimately conditioning themselves with the genre tropes (even though I know there will be a choir of posts protesting this). Therefore, as Fitz says, it's entertainment.

which is also a BIG FAT THEORY (and no way counter to the 'spirit' in which I posed the original question!). The former suggestion is that epic fantasy expresses something innate, some hard-wired need that we humans have, the latter is that it expresses an arbitrary way certain youths are trained to like a certain genre.

So I guess the question here is one of whether epic fantasy is a contingent social artifact (Monosyllabik) or a necessary social artifact (Fitz). (The point about entertainment I take as a given, so long as entertainment isn't conceived in any naive sense of 'pure' entertainment.) This might be a good issue to sound off on, since it seems to describe two rather large approaches one might take to the question of epic fantasy.

For my own part, it seems obvious that it has to come down to some combination of the two. Myth, for instance, certainly isn't contingent - we humans are obviously hard-wired to understand things in narrative, anthropocentric terms. Insofar as epic fantasy maintains any relation to myth, it maintains some relation to those needs myth answers to.

Which leads me to think I'm misunderstanding you Monosyllabik. For instance, I'm not quite sure what you're referring to when you say

But I can't see even half the erudition you guys spoke of in that thread in the fat fantasy being published these days. Even the best stuff, like Martin, seems to really only be writing out of sheer love for character and story.

What erudition? You seem to be suggesting (especially with that 'really only') that authors must somehow be aware of the social and historical contexts that inform their writing - that whatever meaning we find in a work has to be a matter of authorial intention. But this has to be false for something like social critiques to even be possible, and they're quite possible.

Which makes me suspect there's more to your view than meets the eye.

Right now, I hate you all!

Hold onto that hate! You'll need it to survive the trial to come!

 

[Erfael]

Let me try to recap, Fitz: myth is the cultural expression of humanity's need to understand their place in the social and cosmic orders through narrative, and epic fantasy is the modern expression of this self-same need, driven (in part) by the contemporary fragmentation of traditional institutions of myth-making. Would that be fair?

This is definitely how I view the genre, at least as long as I have been thoughtful enough to put any time into what makes it up. And I think it's totally fair. For me, now, I read fantasy specifically for this reason, that it can border so well on the mythic.

 

[Rob B]

No-Dog, you did a bang-up job of telling me what I wanted to say.

Why is it a 'degraded' literary category?

This is the one that pisses me off the most - the snobbery of people who look down upon this genre we love. This degraded sens can really speak for most of Fantasy, to be honest.

Many people associate Epic Fantasy (EF) with or as Kids Books, a genre that is silly, a genre that is associated with the percievd geekery of Dungeons and Dragons and that the readers are little more than children in adults bodies who cannot deal with the real world.

Like anything, people are not willing to look beyond what they perceive and what the "know"

But you know what? Ask people why they DON'T read Epic Fantasy (or much of Speculative Fiction for that matter) and you will likely find one of the reasons is because they don't like all the invented abnormal sounding names, the odd sounding worlds and lands. They aren't willing to invest the time to read the work and see the time, imagination and maturity quality writers put into their. It is too difficult for them to read.

One thing Greg Keyes said that stuck with me is how much more respected the genre is outside the US. It seems to get more respect in the UK, but here's what he said about:

RB: With your success, within the genre (Locus Bestseller, le Grand Prix de l’Imaginaire Award for Newton’s Cannon) has your approach to writing changed

GK: That award was kind of a surprise, it was a French award. The Grand Prix de l’Imaginaire French equivalent of the Nebula.

RB: Wow.

GK: Like the Nebula in that it’s voted on by writers, publishers and editors. My book won for best foreign novel. They called and ask if they could fly me there to come and pick up the award. And this was not too long after 9/11, but they thought we would be leery of flying. I said, no give me the ticket and I’m on my way. It was very interesting, very, very interesting convention because it was unlike any American convention that I’ve been to. It was very, very seriously about Science Fiction and Fantasy. There were no Hello Kitties running around.

RB: No costume parties and the like?

GK: It wasn’t about fans really, though there were a lot of fans there. They were there to have deep discussions about "What is Science Fiction for?" "What is Fantasy for?" I did these panels in which, besides the fact that we are doing them in 3 or 4 languages with a translator, they took it real seriously over there. I go to conventions here in the States, and they are fun, I try to had as much fun as anybody at DragonCon, but the level of discussion [in France] about SF&F was not something I was used to, it was a lot of fun. It was also fun to get some very different perspective. There are all these writers from all over Europe over there, and Asia for that matter.

These are people, who are...say you’re a Polish Science Fiction writer, odds are you aren’t in it for the money. There’s a real fervor about that I just don’t often see around here

 

[Archmage]

That would explain Roswell...

*LOL* ET needs to chill with the drinking and driving

 

[Archmage]

Why Do People Read Fantasy

I think it all boils down to what the reader is looking to get out of his/her reading experience. Some readers may simply be reading because they enjoy the sense of fun and adventure. Some readers are looking for an immersive experience. Some readers are looking for deep concepts, explorations of thought and ideas that parallel what is going on in our world today. Some readers are looking for pieces of all of that, or are looking specifically for all those aspects. Personally, I enjoy fantasy for a number of reasons. I love the immersive experience aspect. But I also greatly enjoy the World Building aspect, and the attention to detail neccessary to successfully create a World. I enjoy the magical elements and sense of the 'epic' or grandness within Epic Fantasy. I have a deep respect and admiration for fantasy authors. To write a piece of fantasy, requires an amazing amount of imagination and an ability to express that imagination into words. Similiar to how an artist expresses their imagination onto a piece of canvas.

As for Fitz's statement about a need, whether subconscious or conscious, to be aware of or feel a part of something bigger than yourself, I cannot make much of a statement on a large scale. I can only speak on that statement as it relates to myself. I can say with complete sincerity and certainty, that I do not read fantasy out of a need to feel there is some reason for life, or to feel a need for a god like figure in my life. I do not need any god like figure in my life. Whether or not any god(s) exist is irrelevant to me. It doesn't in any way affect how I live my life. If I need to feel a sense of something bigger than myself, all I have to do is go outside on a bright, clear night, and look up at all the billions of stars, and feel a sense of my own insignificance on a grand scale. At the same time, I need only put my hand to the ground, and grasp a handful of dirt, to gain a sense of my own significance. I am part of a family, part of a speices, am sentient and self aware, and live on this beautiful, amazing planet. That is the only sense of significance I need.

Sincerely,
Arch

 

[Larry]

Before I write more about what I'm working on (maybe tomorow?), here's a question I want people here to consider:

What makes today's epic fantasies (or capital-F Fantasy for that matter) different from older tales/myths of gods/goddesses, heroes, magical quests, loss/suffering to gain, the interplay of Good and Evil elemental forces, etc.?

I consider this to be a central question to the entire debate over the "worthiness" of reading/writing in the field.

 

[Nimea]

This is the one that pisses me off the most - the snobbery of people who look down upon this genre we love. This degraded sens can really speak for most of Fantasy, to be honest.

Many people associate Epic Fantasy (EF) with or as Kids Books, a genre that is silly, a genre that is associated with the percievd geekery of Dungeons and Dragons and that the readers are little more than children in adults bodies who cannot deal with the real world.

Like anything, people are not willing to look beyond what they perceive and what the "know"

But you know what? Ask people why they DON'T read Epic Fantasy (or much of Speculative Fiction for that matter) and you will likely find one of the reasons is because they don't like all the invented abnormal sounding names, the odd sounding worlds and lands. They aren't willing to invest the time to read the work and see the time, imagination and maturity quality writers put into their. It is too difficult for them to read.

Yep, that's something I have encountered, too. Very often.

Some weeks ago in a reader's review for a YA fantasy book: 'I don't like fantasy, because I don't like to read about things that do not exist.'
But she likes to read fiction a lot . . . mmh.

As for Fitz's statement about a need, whether subconscious or conscious, be aware of or feel a part of something bigger than yourself, I cannot make much of a statement on a large scale. I can only speak on that statement as it relates to myself. I can say with complete sincerity and certainty, that I do not read fantasy out of a need to feel there is some reason for life, or to feel a need for a god like figure in my life. I do not need any god like figure in my life. Whether or not any god(s) exist is irrelevant to me. It doesn't in any way affect how I live my life. If I need to feel a sense of something bigger than myself, all I have to do is go outside on a bright, clear night, and look up at all the billions of stars, and feel a sense of my own insignificance on a grand scale. At the same time, I need only put my hand to the ground, and grasp a handful of dirt, to gain a sense of my own significance. I am part of a family, part of a speices, am sentient and self aware, and live on this beautiful, amazing planet. That is the only sense of significance I need.

Well, good for you - but what if "Some readers are looking for deep concepts, explorations of thought and ideas that parallel what is going on in our world today." also is part of a search for something like a belief system, a religion or one's place in the universe - often unconsciously , I think, since the first thing that comes to my mind when buying a book is 'entertainment' (neither 'pure' nor 'naive').
Not meaning that one wants to find the exact perfect thing within a fantasy novel, but by seeing what others think about religion, ethics or whatever (and how others play with these things to built a fictional, but working world), one might find new things to chew on and make up one's view of the world.

What do I mean? Good question.
It's just that your words sound a bit like belittling the pure concept of something like such a need - however broad that can be interpreted. And I think that's not right.
Sorry, if I got you wrong there, just needed to comment.

Gosh, I am confused. I watched way too many movies in only 6 days.

Any other coherent thoughts? Hardly.

But Aldarion, why do you consider that to be a central question? (Just asking since I can't think of an answer to your question right now. )

I think we are socialised into reading epic fantasy. Most readers of fantasy seem to have followed the pattern of reading Tolkien when very young, then gotten into gaming, and ultimately conditioning themselves with the genre tropes (even though I know there will be a choir of posts protesting this).

Yep, protest here. Well, a bit at least. Haven't made up my mind about 'conditioning', since there surely is some fall-out on the way that leads to many people stubornly thinking some things to be the only right answer.

But I did not read Tolkien until two years ago - and then only the first part . My hunger for novels did not even start with fantasy - even so I was young I never felt like being conditioned, rather got to know more and more tropes or cliches or whatever you want to call it, and that only because something within me felt drawn to those tropes exactly (swords, riding horses, wearing armor, kings, heroes and all that basic stuff. ). There was nothing before that which tuned me to medieval times or something like that.
Btw. I started reading fantasy and playing RPGs at almost the same time.

Sure, I got older, I reflected, I made up my mind about a lot of things. But something did not change . . .

These days I like to explore how cliches and tropes are used by writers - and I use them myself to explore things, like characters and their way to interact or react to a certain sourrounding or concepts of morality. You can do that with non-fantasy as well, but (epic) fantasy is the thing that best fits with me, myself and Nimea.
And so I suspect it is with many other readers who love Epic Fantasy. As well as there are many who can't find anything in their taste responding to it.

Well, this 'something inside me responding to Big Fat Fantasy' is so hard to explain. I can't really tell you, but it is the source, everything else (mentioned by countless others) comes after it - even so that is what is fleshing it out and makes the experience (entertainment for example) really deep...


Sorry for these ramblings of a movie-going maniac. (Soon I will be off to my 9th movie in 6 days.)

And maybe I will find something more to say on this topic later . . . find some more answers for myself?

 

[Larry]

Very quickly, before I leave for the evening: The reason why I considered that to be a central question is because how people perceive the world around them tends to determine if they are going to view a work as a fantasy or not.

As I shared with No-Dog earlier this week, here's the main premise of my argument:

Discourse has shifted from a world that is to a world that cannot be.

It's all in how we view our world around us. I'll explain in much greater detail later.

 

[Archmage]

Well, good for you - but what if "Some readers are looking for deep concepts, explorations of thought and ideas that parallel what is going on in our world today." also is part of a search for something like a belief system, a religion or one's place in the universe - often unconsciously , I think, since the first thing that comes to my mind when buying a book is 'entertainment' (neither 'pure' nor 'naive').
Not meaning that one wants to find the exact perfect thing within a fantasy novel, but by seeing what others think about religion, ethics or whatever (and how others play with these things to built a fictional, but working world), one might find new things to chew on and make up one's view of the world.

What do I mean? Good question.
It's just that your words sound a bit like belittling the pure concept of something like such a need - however broad that can be interpreted. And I think that's not right.
Sorry, if I got you wrong there, just needed to comment.

No, I wasn't belittling the concept of searching for a religion or a god. That is why I said, in the first part of my post, that some people are searching for deep concepts or meaning within fantasy literature. I find nothing wrong with that at all. Although I will be the first one to say that I am not a fan of organized religion, I certainly would not say people do not have the right to, or belittle someone, because they are searching for such a thing. There has been alot of discussion as to 'why' people read fantasy, what is the 'appeal', what are they looking to get out of it. This thread touches upon those very concepts and looks for explanations. I was actually responding to what Fitz had said, about the conscious or sub conscious need to look for something beyond yourself. And since that is not the sort of statement that I feel I have the right to make an 'across the board, generalized' response about, I could only respond to that in so far as how it does, or does not, play a part in why I read Fantasy. That was all I meant

Peace,
Arch

 

[Beleg]

Aldarion posted,

What makes today's epic fantasies (or capital-F Fantasy for that matter) different from older tales/myths of gods/goddesses, heroes, magical quests, loss/suffering to gain, the interplay of Good and Evil elemental forces, etc.?

Nothing in basic infrastructre, In my opinion, except our preception.

 

[Rob B]

What makes today's epic fantasies (or capital-F Fantasy for that matter) different from older tales/myths of gods/goddesses, heroes, magical quests, loss/suffering to gain, the interplay of Good and Evil elemental forces, etc.?

I consider this to be a central question to the entire debate over the "worthiness" of reading/writing in the field.

Differences between today and old myths:

For one, our way of looking at the world is different; our level of thinking is much higher than when the older tales were told.

Storytelling tradition is in the written tradition now, as opposed to the oral tradition, the tales were passed down through the generations, now we just pass along books.

Technology – though our technology is more advanced, our societal development through and with technology impacts the stories and how they are told.

Of course there is more to it than that…but its a start.

 

[Erfael]

If I need to feel a sense of something bigger than myself, all I have to do is go outside on a bright, clear night, and look up at all the billions of stars, and feel a sense of my own insignificance on a grand scale. At the same time, I need only put my hand to the ground, and grasp a handful of dirt, to gain a sense of my own significance. I am part of a family, part of a speices, am sentient and self aware, and live on this beautiful, amazing planet.

There are many mystics through the ages who would describe this very statement as being aware of god, not a bearded man in the sky, but just what you have described, a brush with the ineffible, the inexplicable roots of being. Many who understand god as metaphor and not hardwired fact view mythologies and spirituality (non-denominational) as one of only many means to these sorts of realizations. Epic fantasy can be another means to this end, on some deep level, as can a pure humility about ones place in the world and cosmos.