The White Luck Warrior Thread

[Luya Sevrein]

Kellhus is essentially the same type of character as Paul Atreides from Dune, one that through breeding has been born as a sort of super-perceptive, super-competent world-interpreting machine. But whereas Paul Atreides uses his skills to benefit humankind, Kellhus uses his to achieve his own ends (there's an open question as to whether these ends are for the good or bad of the world, though). He uses his skills to read and steer other characters in what pretty much amounts to mental or motivational rape. The interesting aspect of the books for many readers is seeing how these other characters struggle against the influence that Kellhus tries to exert on them. Some succeed in that, others fail. But Kellhus isn't the hero of the books and many readers, if they don't outright count him as a villain, find him pretty distasteful in the way he will totally use and destroy people to fit his own needs.

In short, yes, the worst kind of thug...one who should both know better and who has the means to deal with things in a completely different way and yet doesn't.

Well, you've made it more appealing. It sounds interesting. I suppose I don't like the 'Just born that way,' element, it feels so. Oh, here he popped into existance and BAM. XD

I suppose the relief will come at the end when either everything will have been done for everyone's own good in some kind of positive/negative freedom philosophy debate, or someone will own his face, and It'll feel good.

 

[3rdI]

And this reader thinks he is one of the best written characters in fantasy and actively roots for him to dominate and manipulate until all capitulate by whatever means he sees fit. Kellhus makes the rules. On Earwa either play by them or run far far away.

 

[Erfael]

Well, you've made it more appealing. It sounds interesting. I suppose I don't like the 'Just born that way,' element, it feels so. Oh, here he popped into existance and BAM. XD

It's been a few years since I read the first trilogy, so I don't remember when exactly we find out the whys of the way he is, but it is explained eventually. I think for at least some of the first trilogy he does just come out of nowhere (but that's because no one really knows anything about him anyway). And yes, he's a very well-conceived character, particularly as a foil to those around him.

 

[Mithfânion]

He is the most powerful being that has Earwa has ever seen. He has mastered the Gnosis in ways that the Nonmen never dreamt of. His is Dunyain. Conditioned. Follower of the Logos. Master of The Thousandfold Thought. Aspect-Emperor. Self created god

Just to say, for purpose of discussion, that I don't think the first and second statement here are true. As for the TTT, it was invented by Moenghus of course, but Kellhus took that ball and ran with it.

 

[Ash]

Originally Posted by Erfael
Kellhus is essentially the same type of character as Paul Atreides from Dune, one that through breeding has been born as a sort of super-perceptive, super-competent world-interpreting machine. But whereas Paul Atreides uses his skills to benefit humankind, Kellhus uses his to achieve his own ends (there's an open question as to whether these ends are for the good or bad of the world, though). He uses his skills to read and steer other characters in what pretty much amounts to mental or motivational rape. The interesting aspect of the books for many readers is seeing how these other characters struggle against the influence that Kellhus tries to exert on them. Some succeed in that, others fail. But Kellhus isn't the hero of the books and many readers, if they don't outright count him as a villain, find him pretty distasteful in the way he will totally use and destroy people to fit his own needs.

In short, yes, the worst kind of thug...one who should both know better and who has the means to deal with things in a completely different way and yet doesn't.

I think I made a similar comparison some years ago. At the time I considered Kelhus to be very similar to a bene gesserit reverend Mother of the missionaria protectiva, In terms of body conditioning and ability to manipulate a lesser culture. I would be very surprised if this wasn't an influence on Bakker's character.

 

[Werthead]

Sounds kinda' boring.

People focus a lot on Bakker's philosophy, but he also has massive battles and engagements that rival and sometimes outstrip anything in Erikson (probably the closest stylistic comparison, though Bakker is a far better writer). He's definitely not dull. In addition, Bakker doe the philosophical stuff in a far more interesting and concise way than Erikson as well. He hasn't got quite so much crazy going on and what he does is 'earned' more by build-up and foreshadowing. I like Erikson but Bakker has definitely (IMO) firmly outstripped and deplaced him in what they're trying to do with the fantasy genre.

Kellhus makes the rules. On Earwa either play by them or run far far away.

Kellhus's success is due to his status as Dunyain, and there are other Dunyain in the world.

Spoiler for TWLW:

Spoiler

It does appear that Kellhus has made a humongous mistake and error of judgement in TWLW that could cost him dearly. Of course, it may turn out that Kellhus foresaw this and is playing a yet-deeper game, but on the surface Kellhus may have seriously endangered the Great Ordeal's survival going into Book 3.

 

[3rdI]

Spoiler

It does appear that Kellhus has made a humongous mistake and error of judgement in TWLW that could cost him dearly. Of course, it may turn out that Kellhus foresaw this and is playing a yet-deeper game, but on the surface Kellhus may have seriously endangered the Great Ordeal's survival going into Book 3.

Doubt it. I would bet on the deeper game side. I will make a friendly wager with you. When book three comes out and if you are correct, I will change my user title to whatever you like for a month. If I am correct, you have to change yours to something of my choosing for a month. Do we have a bet? It is a fairly safe bet given the odds of me lasting another two or three years without getting banned are fairly low.

 

[3rdI]

Guess that means no bet eh?

Kellhus doesn't make mistakes. If it looks like a mistake it was planned.

Perfect ending to the Second Apocalypse....

Kellhus vs. Mog Pharau in a knock down drag out battle that shakes the foundations of Earwa. Mog catches a beat down and Kellhus and his progeny dominate Earwa until the end of time.

One can only hope.

 

[Werthead]

No, no bet I'm slightly more on the 50-50 side of things at the moment. It all hinges on whether:

Spoiler

Kellhus can read and manipulate Nonmen the way he can Men. If he can, then he's playing the deeper game. If not, he, the Ordeal and the World are royally screwed.

 

[3rdI]

No, no bet I'm slightly more on the 50-50 side of things at the moment. It all hinges on whether:

Spoiler

Kellhus can read and manipulate Nonmen the way he can Men. If he can, then he's playing the deeper game. If not, he, the Ordeal and the World are royally screwed.

Intriguing. Now I am looking forward to TWLW a bit more. Look forward to discussing this more when I finish the book.

 

[3rdI]

My copy of The White-Luck Warrior arrived today and I am looking forward to reading it. Gave The Judging Eye another quick once over so the reading experience will be seamless. As my friend Spears so eloquently stated, Bakker can absolutely write your face off. Truly a gifted author.

 

[Spears&Buckler]

Hey 3rdI, I was thinking of giving The Judging Eye a reread myself, but then I saw the "What Has Come Before" section in my White Luck Warrior it seemed pretty thorough and i was going to blow the reread off. Is it worth the reread or should I get what I need out of the refresher section?

 

[Werthead]

For my part, I didn't bother rereading TJE. I read it when it came out two years ago and retained a good enough memory of its events. The 'story so far' bit helped a lot, though it does leave out a few bits.

 

[columbob]

For my part, I didn't bother rereading TJE. I read it when it came out two years ago and retained a good enough memory of its events. The 'story so far' bit helped a lot, though it does leave out a few bits.

Rereading the final part of Cil-Aujas would have helped me a little more, but otherwise the What Came Before was sufficient.

Over halfway done, will likely finish it over the weekend. Awesome.

 

[3rdI]

Hey 3rdI, I was thinking of giving The Judging Eye a reread myself, but then I saw the "What Has Come Before" section in my White Luck Warrior it seemed pretty thorough and i was going to blow the reread off. Is it worth the reread or should I get what I need out of the refresher section?

I would re-read TJE as TWLW picks up right where it left off. Plus the passage through Cil-Aujas is freaking fantastic and certainly worth more than one read. Drusas is his normal whining obsessive self but Cleric is a quality character.

 

[3rdI]

Just to say, for purpose of discussion, that I don't think the first and second statement here are true. As for the TTT, it was invented by Moenghus of course, but Kellhus took that ball and ran with it.

I missed your post my apologies for the delay in response.

As for the TTT indeed Moenghus created it but Kellhus has taken it farther than his father could have imagined. Will it be far enough is the question.

As for power who would you deem more powerful than Kellhus? The Nonmen Quya could not speak with three tongues. Kellhus has created an entire new branch of Gnostic sorcery. Combine that with his mastery of the logos and his supreme Dunyain training and I cannot think of any other character that rivals him. Mog-Pharau was struck down by Seswatha with the Heron Spear and Seswatha was certainly not in the same league as Kellhus.

Your thoughts?

 

[3rdI]

People focus a lot on Bakker's philosophy, but he also has massive battles and engagements that rival and sometimes outstrip anything in Erikson (probably the closest stylistic comparison, though Bakker is a far better writer). He's definitely not dull. In addition, Bakker doe the philosophical stuff in a far more interesting and concise way than Erikson as well. He hasn't got quite so much crazy going on and what he does is 'earned' more by build-up and foreshadowing. I like Erikson but Bakker has definitely (IMO) firmly outstripped and deplaced him in what they're trying to do with the fantasy genre.



Kellhus's success is due to his status as Dunyain, and there are other Dunyain in the world.

Spoiler for TWLW:

Spoiler

It does appear that Kellhus has made a humongous mistake and error of judgement in TWLW that could cost him dearly. Of course, it may turn out that Kellhus foresaw this and is playing a yet-deeper game, but on the surface Kellhus may have seriously endangered the Great Ordeal's survival going into Book 3.

Wert this might be the first book that we have ever agreed on. TWLW is fantastic. I have yet to finish as I am taking my time and enjoying the book but it is absolutely superb.

 

[Mithfânion]

Hello 3rd

As for power who would you deem more powerful than Kellhus?

No one for certain, but there are some who could be his equal, or surpass him. Foremost candidate is of course Mog Pharau once resurrected. This might also be those among the Consult we have yet to meet. like Shauriatas, or Mekeritrig, or other Nonmen Erratics on the side of the Consult.

Finally, possibly Incariol.

I'm a great fan of Kellhus as well, but I think is too early to say that he is or will continue to be the greatest character in the series in terms of power and ability. Certainly the greatest of Men though.

Also, we don't know how powerful the Nonmen Quya were compared to Kellhus. Mind you, TJE confirms again that the Nonmen were more intelligent than mankind, so their innate abilities might also surpass Kellhus's. I think it is quite possible that the Nonmen mages in Ishterebinth are every bit Kellhus' equal. Also, the full power of the Inchoroi has yet to be revealed I think, they have now shown their hand yet.

 

[columbob]

No, no bet I'm slightly more on the 50-50 side of things at the moment. It all hinges on whether:

Spoiler

Kellhus can read and manipulate Nonmen the way he can Men. If he can, then he's playing the deeper game. If not, he, the Ordeal and the World are royally screwed.

Spoiler

But how could he? He never received that training did he? Everything tells us that the Non Men have nothing in common with humans and that they can't expect anything when dealing with them. And he makes a pact with the Non Men embassy, who are speaking in the name of their King...who's not in Ishterebinth at all! Do the Non Men have a way of communicating with each other over long distances? Cleric also mentions that there's nobody left in Ishterebinth, that they all went to Golgotterath a while ago. I think they're screwed, but we'll see once Serwa gets there.

Also about Serwa's travelling, hopefully they're doing it through hilly country, because on flat land, you can't really see much farther than a distance of a few miles and walking would cover a lot more ground than jumping twice daily.

BTW I was expecting what happened to one of the four armies, I guess that was the point of splitting it in the first place plotwise right?
And just how many millions of Sranc are there? 20 years of scalping haven't made a dent, that was a pretty futile endeavor, if an interesting idea.

 

[3rdI]

This book is all kinds of awesome. Cleric just keeps getting cooler. Drusas stills gets on my nerves.

Mith...Still think Kellhus would stomp Cleric. If you remember in the TJE Kellhus traveled from horizon to horizon just to speak with Esmi about The White-Luck Warrior. Hundreds of miles in a matter of moments? Cleric has been impressive but his sorcery hasn't touched what Kellhus can do at the moment.