The White Luck Warrior Thread

[3rdI]

Hello 3rd



No one for certain, but there are some who could be his equal, or surpass him. Foremost candidate is of course Mog Pharau once resurrected. This might also be those among the Consult we have yet to meet. like Shauriatas, or Mekeritrig, or other Nonmen Erratics on the side of the Consult.

Finally, possibly Incariol.

I'm a great fan of Kellhus as well, but I think is too early to say that he is or will continue to be the greatest character in the series in terms of power and ability. Certainly the greatest of Men though.

Also, we don't know how powerful the Nonmen Quya were compared to Kellhus. Mind you, TJE confirms again that the Nonmen were more intelligent than mankind, so their innate abilities might also surpass Kellhus's. I think it is quite possible that the Nonmen mages in Ishterebinth are every bit Kellhus' equal. Also, the full power of the Inchoroi has yet to be revealed I think, they have now shown their hand yet.

Dude I feel bad for Scott. TWLW is selling well in Canada but for some reason it doesn't seem to be getting the attention it should in the States. I am tempted to put a freaking bumper sticker on my car that says GO READ R. SCOTT BAKKER!!! No one has ever written an epic fantasy like this. Do you think Overlook dropped the ball? I just wish Scott could have gotten with DAW or TOR...someone with enough money to market the hell out of his books. The release date in the states got all screwed up as well initially it was supposed to be 3/31 which it was in Canada but it didn't get released here until 4/14 or 4/15. Add to that B&N once again screwing up....http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/....I bleeping hate B&N....

My point obviously is that Bakker is an incredibly gifted author who is crafting a masterpiece and not enough people know about it. It should be right up next to Rothfuss and Martin in terms of Book Sales.

 

[Erfael]

I agree that more people should be reading it, but I don't think it'll happen. It just doesn't scream "mass appeal" to me the same way Martin and Rothfuss do. Bakker's books are just different, and I think that works against them as far as popular acceptance goes. We here at SFFWorld don't represent the average fantasy reader, and I'm not sure that average reader is looking for the kinds of things to be found in Scott's books.

 

[Werthead]

They're 'different', but I'd argue not much moreso than Dune and probably not as much as Malazan. Sales in the UK are also pretty good.

The main problem is that Overlook - though an excellent company - are a small publisher without much clout or footprint. They have trouble getting or spending much on shelf space, publicity, marketing etc. If Scott was with a bigger publisher, I'm sure he'd do better. It might have been better if Overlook had let another publisher (Orbit US seems the most logical choice) to release the books in mass-market paperback rather than doing it themselves.

 

[Spears&Buckler]

It's too bad that Overlook doesn't have much clout, because they put out a great looking product. I have all 5 of the 3 Seas books in 1st edition hardcover, and they are the most beautiful books on my shelves.

 

[Erfael]

It's too bad that Overlook doesn't have much clout, because they put out a great looking product. I have all 5 of the 3 Seas books in 1st edition hardcover, and they are the most beautiful books on my shelves.

I agree. And not just nice-looking. They're sturdy, tightly-bound, with really nice paper.

Now if they could have just edited out all those wrong homophones....dual/duel, censor/censer, want/wont...

And by different I think I mean that it's lacking any really sympathetic characters for a lot of people. There's not the kind of comic relief that is present in some Mazalan characters. The world is cold and grey. On top of that, the viewpoints (even when in a close 3rd person) are fairly detached and analytical. Just basing it on comments here over the years, I can't but think that the combination of those things really put off some readers. (Because as offensive as some people are finding the article Evil Agent linked to in the other thread, the farther things get from that type of fantasy, the less a large portion of the readership will like things.)

 

[suciul]

And by different I think I mean that it's lacking any really sympathetic characters for a lot of people.

While that may be partly an issue, let's not forget that there is a hard balancing act between writing fiction and philosophy, not to speak of genre fiction with all its constraints; just to give a simple example of things that bother me when Scott Bakker gets all serious and didactic is the time scales - from Kelhus arriving to him taking over the whole known world in the first trilogy is how much, one year, two years, three years?

Forgot the exact dates but anything on that timescale is just fantasy so to speak - fine in fantasy, not so fine in philosophy if you get my meaning.

And there are tons of little things like this that I usually gloss over in sff, but when said sff tries to get all self-important and mighty, they start bothering me and I get all nitpicky.

 

[3rdI]

They're 'different', but I'd argue not much moreso than Dune and probably not as much as Malazan. Sales in the UK are also pretty good.

The main problem is that Overlook - though an excellent company - are a small publisher without much clout or footprint. They have trouble getting or spending much on shelf space, publicity, marketing etc. If Scott was with a bigger publisher, I'm sure he'd do better. It might have been better if Overlook had let another publisher (Orbit US seems the most logical choice) to release the books in mass-market paperback rather than doing it themselves.

That would have made sense. I have the hardcovers but I noticed they released those soft cover large paperbacks. Seems like they would have been better served, as you said, to have allowed another publisher with a larger footprint stateside to release standard paperbacks. Cost goes down for the consumer which in turn makes it more likely for a reader who hasn't heard of Scott to take a chance.

I just hope he is making some kind of decent money. I would hate to think that he is spending all this time writing this remarkable story and seeing no significant financial rewards. At least enough to make a decent living.

In the words of the Wu Tang Clan...

Cash
Rules
Everything
Around
Me

C.R.E.A.M get the money...

dolla dolla bill y'all

Scott deserves that cash money.

 

[3rdI]

While that may be partly an issue, let's not forget that there is a hard balancing act between writing fiction and philosophy, not to speak of genre fiction with all its constraints; just to give a simple example of things that bother me when Scott Bakker gets all serious and didactic is the time scales - from Kelhus arriving to him taking over the whole known world in the first trilogy is how much, one year, two years, three years?

Forgot the exact dates but anything on that timescale is just fantasy so to speak - fine in fantasy, not so fine in philosophy if you get my meaning.

And there are tons of little things like this that I usually gloss over in sff, but when said sff tries to get all self-important and mighty, they start bothering me and I get all nitpicky.

Huh? Have we forgotten the lessons history has taught us? It doesn't take long to consolidate power.

As for Philosophy I would put Scott up against anyone in that arena. He is not just a fantasy writer dabbling in Philosophy. He has an MA in Theory and Criticism and was working on a PhD in Philosophy but ultimately decided not to finish...(I imagine trying to write full time and work on a PhD would be a bit taxing)

On top of that lets keep in mind he is still writing fantasy. So in Kellhus you have a being conditioned for dominance set in a world with sorcery and it is not a stretch at all. Kellhus is Dunyain. Conditioned. The greatest minds Earwa has produced are but children compared to him.

 

[suciul]

On top of that lets keep in mind he is still writing fantasy. So in Kellhus you have a being conditioned for dominance set in a world with sorcery and it is not a stretch at all. Kellhus is Dunyain. Conditioned. The greatest minds Earwa has produced are but children compared to him.

Do not disagree with the above but that's the point, the above is fantasy not philosophy and has little to do with the real world, the empirical thingy that's out there and constrains us; I see no real value in empty pretentious talk which the PoN trilogy falls a bit too much on occasion and I find philosophy without any empirical basis just that

On the other hand something like Neal Stephenson's Anathem is something I can take much more seriously if you want to talk about philosophy in sff

 

[Mithfânion]

I see what you mean Suciul, though without agreeing myself. One of the many reasons I love his work is that I can still suspend disbelief with Bakker. It all seems very immaculately engineered.

And on something different: I really, really want Kellhus to succeed. I know some readers really dislike him. But I think Scott is still portraying him as "the hero" of sorts, though it may be a very tragically doomed one. His quest is real, and he is now beset on all sides ( undoubtedly Scott's response to those who felt that Kellhus didn't have enough opposition). We are seeing a legend whilst still alive.

 

[3rdI]

And on something different: I really, really want Kellhus to succeed. I know some readers really dislike him. But I think Scott is still portraying him as "the hero" of sorts, though it may be a very tragically doomed one. His quest is real, and he is now beset on all sides ( undoubtedly Scott's response to those who felt that Kellhus didn't have enough opposition). We are seeing a legend whilst still alive.

Well said. I think there might only be three of us pulling for him. You and Spears are the only other two Kellhus fans I have met. Such a well written character. When you mentioned him being beset Samuel L. Jackson's Pulp Fiction speech came to mind lol Not sure if you have ever watched the movie but I just got a funny visual of Kellhus calmly giving that speech right before he drop kicks Mog-Pharau back into the void.

 

[Spears&Buckler]

"...and you will know my name is the lord..." Awesome!

 

[3rdI]

Kellhus says...

All your base are belong to us.

heh

 

[kansasbarbarian]

finally

I finally got my copy of TWLW. Amazon dropped the ball hard for me. I was really mad at how long it took to get it.
Anyways am about halfway through it and am loving it. Cleric just rocks and is right behind Cnaiur and Kellhus as the best characters in the whole of Earwa.
I was always fond of barbarians /warriors but Bakker's mages and magic system are second to none.
This is what I was waiting for. Stopped reading today so I could plant a few things in my yard ahead of Earth Day. (4/22)

 

[Mithfânion]

I was actually think of Pulp Fiction as well when I mentioned "beset" and in my mind it continued with "on all sides by the iniquities of
the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.".

Very cool Earwa map by the way.

Kansas,

All word on the book has been very positive about it. Anticipation for Unholy Consult has begun ( I hope we get a response from Scott on that in the upcoming interview).

 

[Spears&Buckler]

I was actually think of Pulp Fiction as well when I mentioned "beset" and in my mind it continued with "on all sides by the iniquities of
the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.".

Very cool Earwa map by the way.

Kansas,

All word on the book has been very positive about it. Anticipation for Unholy Consult has begun ( I hope we get a response from Scott on that in the upcoming interview).

You're doing the interview? LUCKY!

 

[Mithfânion]

Nope, Pat, Adam and Larry do that, but I expect that question to be posed.

 

[kansasbarbarian]

Okay finished the book. It was incredible. Bakker is the master of fantasy bar none. The whole book just flowed for me. There was no boring parts. Everything came together like a many layered puzzle.
I really hated one part though. It broke my heart. But should have realized it would happen.
Can't wait for Unholy Consult.

 

[Endosymbiote]

Alright, I need someone to discuss TJE & TWLW with because Scott has never answered a single question about plot in his blog comments.

Bakker claimed that the stakes would be made clear in this book, but quite frankly, I am still confused as hell.

I'm too lazy to use spoiler tags so


SPOILERS BELOW




I have a list of questions that need informed opinion:

Spoiler

1. The preface of TJE and WLW explicitly state that Kellhus went mad after he saw Mog-Pharau during his Circumfixion. If this is from Bakker's perspective, he's essentially telling us that Kellhus has become an antagonist of sorts (a sort of AI gone "bad"... I use the term AI as Bakker himself has described Kellhus in such terms before). If went mad trying to grasp the Absolute, then maybe HE is destined to embody the Whirlwind (note: symbolically, a whirlwind can actually be viewed as a self-causing closed system, where one motion eventually returns to cause itself... something the Dunyain have been strving for). Personally, I've wondered about Kellhus very deeply after his encounter with Aurang the Deceiver in TTT: there is one sentence where he explicitly FAILS to grasp the darkness that precedes one of his thoughts regarding Esmenet.

2. Ishual is destroyed. Did the Consult finally find them or was it Kellhus himself?

3. Was it ever mentioned what motivated Moenghus to leave Ishual in the first place? Pretty much everything that has happened thus far hinges on this initial causal event.

4. Kellhus tells the Nonmen diplomats that The God is splintered. Assuming this is not deception, what caused that splintering? It must go back at least as far the Tusk...

5. In a related question: Woteat the Wracu outright states that the Consult has purged other worlds before crash-landing on Earwa! For some reason, their Damnation is tied to this particular world, with its particular Splintered God and for some reason they need to kill every human being to "Seal the World against the Heavens" (what teh hell does THAt mean?). This whole thing is still totally unclear to me. Anyone else confused? Also, if Eternal Torment is really being meted out by the Gods, then I CHEER FOR THE CONSULT, no matter how evil, vile and depraved they are. No crime is so grave it deserves an eternity of suffering. During the Prince of Nothing trilogy, I just thought all religion and damnation was a falsehood propagated by the Consult (hence Dunyain superiority) but that was shown incorrect with TJE and WLW clearly showing that Yatwer is real, has power, and with Mimara's Judging Eye that distinguishes good from evil in an absolute form.

6. Are the Inchoroi "aliens"? I used to think so (weapons of light, huge ship, Tekne...) but why would alien souls be damned by gods from another world? Makes no sense.

Random Ruminations:
1. The deceptions run deeper than we all realize. The Dunyain were sent by Aurang the Deceiver in order to rope men into walking into the Maw of the Horde, thereby allowing the Consult to reawaken Mog Pharau. During his encounter with Aurang, Kellhus was mind-hacked and a hidden 'darkness' was activated that led him to his current path. However, this doesn't seem likely given that the Skin Spies and Nonmen Erratics working for the Consult don't seem to know this.

2. There is no Damnation. The Judging Eye, damnation... all of these things are lies the Consult (or an even deeper hidden adversary) has constructed to manipulate behavior. This explains why the Nonmen practiced sorcery without fear (Cleric stained his soul to the point of it being physically repulsive to Mimara) and why Kellhus didn't give a damn about being Damned. Of course, if this is true... then what is the Consult's ultimate motive? Gah, nothing makes sense...

 

[3rdI]

Alright, I need someone to discuss TJE & TWLW with because Scott has never answered a single question about plot in his blog comments.

Bakker claimed that the stakes would be made clear in this book, but quite frankly, I am still confused as hell.

I'm too lazy to use spoiler tags so


SPOILERS BELOW




I have a list of questions that need informed opinion:

Spoiler

1. The preface of TJE and WLW explicitly state that Kellhus went mad after he saw Mog-Pharau during his Circumfixion. If this is from Bakker's perspective, he's essentially telling us that Kellhus has become an antagonist of sorts (a sort of AI gone "bad"... I use the term AI as Bakker himself has described Kellhus in such terms before). If went mad trying to grasp the Absolute, then maybe HE is destined to embody the Whirlwind (note: symbolically, a whirlwind can actually be viewed as a self-causing closed system, where one motion eventually returns to cause itself... something the Dunyain have been strving for). Personally, I've wondered about Kellhus very deeply after his encounter with Aurang the Deceiver in TTT: there is one sentence where he explicitly FAILS to grasp the darkness that precedes one of his thoughts regarding Esmenet.

2. Ishual is destroyed. Did the Consult finally find them or was it Kellhus himself?

3. Was it ever mentioned what motivated Moenghus to leave Ishual in the first place? Pretty much everything that has happened thus far hinges on this initial causal event.

4. Kellhus tells the Nonmen diplomats that The God is splintered. Assuming this is not deception, what caused that splintering? It must go back at least as far the Tusk...

5. In a related question: Woteat the Wracu outright states that the Consult has purged other worlds before crash-landing on Earwa! For some reason, their Damnation is tied to this particular world, with its particular Splintered God and for some reason they need to kill every human being to "Seal the World against the Heavens" (what teh hell does THAt mean?). This whole thing is still totally unclear to me. Anyone else confused? Also, if Eternal Torment is really being meted out by the Gods, then I CHEER FOR THE CONSULT, no matter how evil, vile and depraved they are. No crime is so grave it deserves an eternity of suffering. During the Prince of Nothing trilogy, I just thought all religion and damnation was a falsehood propagated by the Consult (hence Dunyain superiority) but that was shown incorrect with TJE and WLW clearly showing that Yatwer is real, has power, and with Mimara's Judging Eye that distinguishes good from evil in an absolute form.

6. Are the Inchoroi "aliens"? I used to think so (weapons of light, huge ship, Tekne...) but why would alien souls be damned by gods from another world? Makes no sense.

Random Ruminations:
1. The deceptions run deeper than we all realize. The Dunyain were sent by Aurang the Deceiver in order to rope men into walking into the Maw of the Horde, thereby allowing the Consult to reawaken Mog Pharau. During his encounter with Aurang, Kellhus was mind-hacked and a hidden 'darkness' was activated that led him to his current path. However, this doesn't seem likely given that the Skin Spies and Nonmen Erratics working for the Consult don't seem to know this.

2. There is no Damnation. The Judging Eye, damnation... all of these things are lies the Consult (or an even deeper hidden adversary) has constructed to manipulate behavior. This explains why the Nonmen practiced sorcery without fear (Cleric stained his soul to the point of it being physically repulsive to Mimara) and why Kellhus didn't give a damn about being Damned. Of course, if this is true... then what is the Consult's ultimate motive? Gah, nothing makes sense...

Use the SPOILER Tag.