Whats more confusing, Malazan Series or Prince of Nothing trilogy

[Althax]

True kirk, but it's just not my cup of tea to read stuff like that. If I'm worried or embarassed that my wife will see what I'm reading, I'm not totally comfortable reading it.

 

[DurzoBlint]

I don't find the Malazan books all that confusing. Of course there are issue with the books but the ride is always worth taking.

With the PoN books I also found them to be an easy read I just had a hard time with the characters as none of them had any redeeming qualities.

Both are decent it just depends on what you are in the mood for.

 

[Mordecus]

Malazan is complex, not confusing. Pon is confusing, but not very complex.

Only if you read PoN without thinking about some of the underlying philosophy. Bakker is a philosophy professor and it shows in PoN - there's references to cognitive science and Nietzschean philosophy, as well as an interest in psychopathy (becomes even clearer if you also read Neuropath and then compare the main character there with Khellus). His characters also have tremendous depth and show development throughout the series; whereas the Malazan characters are all static and purely serve a narrative purpose.

Both are very strong series; both are intended for a mature audience. Perhaps the best testament to both series is that they will leave you with mental images and ideas that will stay with you a long time. I personally give the nod to PoN - the characters are better developed, a I found Bakker's prose more rewarding (both Khellus and Cnaiur have several monologues are amazing). MBotF is more epic in scale; but also requires a bit more work to get through. I get that Eriksson wanted to write "smart" fantasy and largely he succeeds.. but at times, the whole "you must figure out what's going on and it's going to take a while" starts to feel a bit like a gimmick.. it's kinda hard to stick with a story where repeatedly you're watching from someone's viewpoint and it takes 25 pages before you even know whom that person is... that being said - some of the scenes (Chain of Dogs?) are flat out amazing.

 

[Anglachel]

Wow, it's always fun to see how other readers experience the series one is reading. A lot of very strange proclamations in here

Some stuff that comes to mind:

PoN is not really finished after the third book...the first 3 books are just the beginning. True, the second trilogy starts some 20 years later but it takes up the thread of the first books and if you stop at PoN you have no real closure for almost all the major threads! Scott definitely sees his first two trilogies as something that belongs together. The third series that should follow...that is a bit more up in the air.

Malazan book characters all purely static and only serve a narrative purpose? Uhm yeah, i guess you must have read different books than i did.

Overall i really enjoyed those two series a lot. Bakker and Erikson are THE epic fantasy authors of our time, imo. Complexity of story and depth of worldbuilding is superb in both series and the intricacies of the stories only come to light if you read them with all your brain attending and/or some rereads.
People who think they got everything those books have to offer in one read-through are kidding themselves And that is also what makes them so good in my opinion...they are both very reread-worthy...which i enjoy in a good series.

Which one is more confusing? Well i echo DurzoBlint. In other words, i can not recommend a reading order for you...the only thing i want to say is : definitely read both series...no matter in what order.

 

[algernoninc]

Malazan for me, without a doubt, and I would add deliberately so. Erikson never fully or clearly explains his world history and his magic system. The reason I gave up on the series after I think 8 books is when it became clear that I was reading only half of the epic, with many events and characters reserved for the books written by Esslemont.

Bakker is dense and demnading, but rarely confusing. The only issues I had where those left for the later books in the series, like the exact nature of the ancient adversaries.

 

[ArtNJ]

I'm a big fan of epic fantasy, and found Malazan so deliberately confusing that I stopped after volume I. Its perhaps my least favorite epic fantasy that gets recommended (by some) on this site.

I think there is a philosophical divide between people that "want to work for it" and "not be handed everything on a silver platter" and people that don't appreciate having to say "wait, WTF is that guy, and WTF is he doing that?" again and again, over and over, repeatedly and with vehemence. Yeah, ok, I'm biased -- I didn't state that entirely fairly. But there is definitely some truth to it.

 

[chris777]

Mordecus the necromancer. Not complaining!

Both great books. Malazan is by far the most confusing. Both are very philosophical and dark. But Malazan purposely throws you into the middle of plots with no explanation. PoN is somewhat linear plot lines. I like Malazan only slighter better, just because of the massive scope. Then again I read 14 malazan books and only 3 of the The Second Apocalypse, PoN trilogy.

 

[kempster]

I would say that the timelines in the Malazan BOTF are the more confusing of the 2. There are so many things going on concurrently that it can get confusing. A lot of the so called "Re-writing of history" in MBOTF is more that the POV of one character is mistaken or flawed, but I understand the point. MBOTF is truly epic in scope but if you are the type of reader that just wants one or two POVs, then you may want to hold off on MBOTF..... There are about 15 to 20 POVs throughout the series.

The confusing thing for me with PON is that I steadily disliked every single major character more and more as the story went on. Drusas is the only character that I at any time had any real empathy for. Eventually as the story wore on he went from sympathetic to pitiable finally to loathsomely weak and my pity turned to disgust. As the Aspect Emperor series continued (through white-luck warrior anyway), my primary joy and motivation for continuing to read the series has been to watch all the horrible things that start to happen to these hideous and hateful characters. Drusas does finally start to fight back a bit in the second trilogy and for me has partially redeemed himself ...... a bit. I look forward to The Unholy Consult in the hope that somebody somewhere can find something that Kelhus actually cares about and then crush whatever Kelhus loves (if there actually is anything that he even remotely cares about) just to hurt that callus son of a B.

Both authors do an outstanding job, but the stories aren't even remotely similar.

Cheers!

 

[Andols]

I'd look at it as PoN books are confusing in better ways. There are more philosophical and historic fantasy elements in Bakkers books I find. Malazan is confusing in timelines and occasional continuity hiccups.

Both are great, but if i was forced to choose it would be Bakker. I've read both completely through twice.

 

[Heather Myst]

I think the Malazan series was very confusing and even though I am not a fan of the series at all I would still suggest reading them just because of the fact that the people who do enjoy the series seem to love it. I thought Prince of Nothing was a breeze compared to Malazan.

 

[Cerberus]

My biggest complaint with Malazan wasn't so much that it was confusing but that it was pointless. You'd have plot lines that take up half of a very long book that wind up with everyone involved dying. Over and over again. So the effort you put into figuring out what was going on and getting to know all the characters, cultures, geography, and civilizations just ended up being a waste because they all just got obliterated anyway. I kept hoping that it would all come to mean something in the last book, but it really didn't and made me regret even starting the series in the first place.

As it stands, Malazan BotF is one of the only series I've ever read that I strongly recommend people DON'T read. Which is a shame because it was fairly well written and the world is incredibly detailed and intricate. It was just that none of the stuff that I was introduced to and came to care about ultimately mattered. Also the few characters you could genuinely call good and worth rooting for all get screwed.

 

[chris777]

My biggest complaint with Malazan wasn't so much that it was confusing but that it was pointless. You'd have plot lines that take up half of a very long book that wind up with everyone involved dying. Over and over again. So the effort you put into figuring out what was going on and getting to know all the characters, cultures, geography, and civilizations just ended up being a waste because they all just got obliterated anyway. I kept hoping that it would all come to mean something in the last book, but it really didn't and made me regret even starting the series in the first place.

As it stands, Malazan BotF is one of the only series I've ever read that I strongly recommend people DON'T read. Which is a shame because it was fairly well written and the world is incredibly detailed and intricate. It was just that none of the stuff that I was introduced to and came to care about ultimately mattered. Also the few characters you could genuinely call good and worth rooting for all get screwed.

I will fight you.

Kidding. I'm not that diehard. But I am curious what plot line you are referring to. I can't recall anywhere that everyone just died.

 

[kempster]

My biggest complaint with Malazan wasn't so much that it was confusing but that it was pointless. You'd have plot lines that take up half of a very long book that wind up with everyone involved dying. Over and over again. So the effort you put into figuring out what was going on and getting to know all the characters, cultures, geography, and civilizations just ended up being a waste because they all just got obliterated anyway. I kept hoping that it would all come to mean something in the last book, but it really didn't and made me regret even starting the series in the first place.

As it stands, Malazan BotF is one of the only series I've ever read that I strongly recommend people DON'T read. Which is a shame because it was fairly well written and the world is incredibly detailed and intricate. It was just that none of the stuff that I was introduced to and came to care about ultimately mattered. Also the few characters you could genuinely call good and worth rooting for all get screwed.

Hmm... I don't really understand your logic here.... ESPECIALLY in light that this for all intensive purposes is a compare/contrast thread between MBOTF and Bakker's Second Apocalypse series.... Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor. I will be completely upfront that I LOVE MBOTF..... but I also really respect the work that Bakker has done. I find it interesting in the extreme that we are 100% diametrically opposed on our interpretations of the very things that you mention in your post.... unless you have not read Bakker's series..... in which case I would grant you a pass, but at the same time would state that to compare the series, you should have read both.

Allow me to use some of Bakker's Kellhusian logic IRT you overarching point about Malazan..... Your point seems to be..... Don't try Malazan because screwed up stuff happens to good characters that we care about and most people die............ Well.... sorry for the spoiler, but Malazan BOOK OF THE FALLEN isn't just because the Crippled God is the "Fallen One". It is precisely about all those that died ad well. Many deaths of great characters had a noble purpose... some did not.... basically..... life/death happens.

Bakker's Kellhus would essentially say that .... based on your logic.... that you should then go ahead and kill your self because evil people that have amassed power in life will remain powerful, bad stuff will happen to good people... and you will die eventually without your dreams being realized so why bother. Or, at the time that you refuse to kill yourself, he uses you in such a way that it is almost a social experiment to find out how far he can manipulate you into debasing yourself and turning your back on everything and anything that you held dear before finally snapping. We have cuckolding, fratricide, patricide statutory rape..... the list goes on in Bakker's story.

As a matter of fact, through all five books published so far..... there has yet to be a single good thing that has happened to anybody in the entire series. Honestly.... as grim as MBOTF is... it is like "It's a Wonderful Life" compared to PON. I would be more than happy to get into specifics, but I fear spoilers for the OP. I can say this..... there are many sacrifices for the greater good in Malazan.... where characters knowingly laid down their lives to achieve a purpose.... at this point in PON and then Aspect.... it is still a sick sadistic amoral bastard manipulating thousands regardless of the ruin he leaves of their lives.

 

[chris777]

Hmm... I don't really understand your logic here.... ESPECIALLY in light that this for all intensive purposes is a compare/contrast thread between MBOTF and Bakker's Second Apocalypse series.... Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor. I will be completely upfront that I LOVE MBOTF..... but I also really respect the work that Bakker has done. I find it interesting in the extreme that we are 100% diametrically opposed on our interpretations of the very things that you mention in your post.... unless you have not read Bakker's series..... in which case I would grant you a pass, but at the same time would state that to compare the series, you should have read both.

Allow me to use some of Bakker's Kellhusian logic IRT you overarching point about Malazan..... Your point seems to be..... Don't try Malazan because screwed up stuff happens to good characters that we care about and most people die............ Well.... sorry for the spoiler, but Malazan BOOK OF THE FALLEN isn't just because the Crippled God is the "Fallen One". It is precisely about all those that died ad well. Many deaths of great characters had a noble purpose... some did not.... basically..... life/death happens.

Bakker's Kellhus would essentially say that .... based on your logic.... that you should then go ahead and kill your self because evil people that have amassed power in life will remain powerful, bad stuff will happen to good people... and you will die eventually without your dreams being realized so why bother. Or, at the time that you refuse to kill yourself, he uses you in such a way that it is almost a social experiment to find out how far he can manipulate you into debasing yourself and turning your back on everything and anything that you held dear before finally snapping. We have cuckolding, fratricide, patricide statutory rape..... the list goes on in Bakker's story.

As a matter of fact, through all five books published so far..... there has yet to be a single good thing that has happened to anybody in the entire series. Honestly.... as grim as MBOTF is... it is like "It's a Wonderful Life" compared to PON. I would be more than happy to get into specifics, but I fear spoilers for the OP. I can say this..... there are many sacrifices for the greater good in Malazan.... where characters knowingly laid down their lives to achieve a purpose.... at this point in PON and then Aspect.... it is still a sick sadistic amoral bastard manipulating thousands regardless of the ruin he leaves of their lives.

Ellipsis overload! =)

Agreed here, though I'm not sure Cerberus was making any sort of comparison, as it sounded like he was just stating his opinion on Malazan. While I don't completely disagree with it, there were some plot threads that I felt didn't really get any attention in the end. Most notably the diseased cult run by Felesin(I think?). That was a pretty huge plot thread that went nowhere. But I don't recall one where everyone just died and it served no purpose.

 

[Cerberus]

I will fight you.

Kidding. I'm not that diehard. But I am curious what plot line you are referring to. I can't recall anywhere that everyone just died.

I can't remember the exact book, 6 or 7 I think, but it introduces two entirely new groups and goes through a detailed brutal war of extermination between the two of them. Just after one group beats the other a god being released from imprisonment flattens the battlefield, killing everyone. I got to that point and thought "Why did I just read half of a 1000 page book for this?"

That was by far the most pointless thing I saw, but the entire series just seemed to be a long, drawn out mess of one group wiping out another group, only to be wiped out themselves. I do understand that there are plenty of people who liked the series, and up to a point I really did too. But near the end I just found it pointless and it was hard to drag through the slog of details all leading up to the same inevitable outcome.

 

[jason10mm]

To be fair to Erikson, he very much seems to be a "the trip is more about the journey than the destination" type guy. He (and his editor, if such a person exists ) seems very comfortable waxing at length on a very tangential side story just because it fleshes out the world a little bit, even if there is little or no plot payoff. I am curious about his writing process though, how he keeps everything straight (though I guess some would say he doesn't!).

 

[DeckardLee]

That's an easy question for me. The Malazan series. I've only read to the second book in the Malazan series and the first book of the Prince of Nothing series, but, by far, the Malazan series. In fact, Malazan has been one of the most confusing things of anything I've thought about that isn't relating to school, work, or my personal life.