Writing Processes

Did someone not get the memo that @KatG likes to argue, dope!, I mean, discuss things in great detail?

Regardless, I like it when she descends upon us this way. She always reveals the biases we often do not even know exist within us.

Of course We are all biased in every way all the time against every thing without good enough reasons and everyone knows it. AND if we aren't we might just as well be, which is just as good... I MEAN BAD.
 
Yep, that’s exactly what I was getting at. Drake grew very organically (it actually started life as a doodle that turned into a short story in the first SFFWorld anthology then into a novel), whereas the new thing was written from plan to outline to book.

And that's what I'm going for, because that's interesting to writers, especially when they think they have to do every project the same way.

You know what, I am aren’t I? <hangs head in shame>

No, no, no hanging. The point I'm making is make use of the field to help your stuff. And understand that the fantasy field is not highly segregated and broader than people tend to think. You're attracting audiences for secondary world stories with the Drake series and vice versa. And Jim Butcher, Kim Harrison and all the rest in contemporary fantasy are your buddies because some of their readers will browse outwards to you and your Burning Man. Did you know you were on a number of highly anticipated in 2016 lists? Your fans are now your army of word of mouth and I know you like them. Now you are looking at simply expanding them, and that may involve anything from YA to science fiction to post-apocalyptic futuristic fantasy to satire to full flung horror. You're not stuck in a box.

Anyway I *really* didn’t mean to piss anyone off with this, sorry if I have.

The only way anybody pisses me off around here is going after another member in a flame war or not cooperating when we give moderator warnings. What I saw was you being concerned and discouraged because you were taking a narrow view of the market. So I nagged you to stop doing that. :) If I get too naggy, tell me to cut it out. But there are numerous fantasy authors who do both secondary world with swords and contemporary fantasy, with only occasional swords. And crime syndicates in epic fantasy are a thing, so you don't have to worry too much there. You can use noir style anywhere in any type of story and it's much liked in fantasy fiction.
 
Is there a novel called "flame war" @KatG ? there should be and you should write it. As a site administrator you will be in the perfect spot to understand all the hair raising intrigue that accompanies one.

I don't know if this misses the point of the thread or not but here's another writer's perspective on writing process that I took to heart.

 
Found an interesting bit of process for big projects in this interview with Moore. I like the idea of picking very resonant names for parts of a big work - like an epic fantasy series - to help get things straight in the head. Not sure there's too many people talking about planning whole series out there (other than Eddings' Rivan Codex).

"As a fan I’ve been following things you’ve said in interviews over the years, first thing I’d ask is – if you’ve taken ten years to write a book of this scale and scope, how do you know when it’s actually finished?

Well, it helps if you’ve got a reasonably rigid blueprint right at the start. This helps to contain a book which is about eternity and which I understood right at the beginning could end up being infinite, if I wasn’t very careful. At the very beginning of the process, when I’d only got the most amorphous idea of the kind of novel that I’d wanted to write, I started to think it was going to be a very, very big novel. I thought, maybe if I started writing down smart-arse chapter titles, or titles that seemed to resonate with the numerous subjects I wanted to talk about, that would be a place to begin. So, I ended up writing down the titles that seemed to have room for everything I wanted to discuss. I got to 35 and then I worked out that would make a prologue, an epilogue, and the remaining 33 chapters divided into 3 books of eleven chapters each.

This is all fairly anally retentive and probably boring and unfathomable but it was just that I needed that seemingly arbitrary ground plan before I actually buckled down to the work. Having got that, and having arranged so that these titles would work best in the first book, these in the second book and so on, I eventually got them into some sort of intuitive order, and then I simply started with the prelude and worked my way over that ten years, with perhaps eighteen months off in the middle doing Dodgem Logic. At that point, I was satisfied that everything I’d wanted to discuss was tied up somewhere in there, and so that was the point at which I was released from my servitude to Jerusalem. I’d fulfilled my part of the bargain.

It sounds like a very committed way to work

Well, it seemed to be necessary. I’d never actually had the impulse to write a book that was as big as this in every sense, and I understood fairly early on that I was going to need a lot of new tools and new ideas to actually navigate a book of that size. I mean plotting, simple things like plotting, become a difficulty, especially with the multiple plots that run through Jerusalem, when you’re expecting a reader to remember an incident on a certain page of a novel hundreds and hundreds of pages later - perhaps weeks in their actual life. You’ve got to sort of think about that and plot the novel differently so that certain things are reminders, or are underlined at certain intervals. It’s more or less stuff that I was working out as I was going, but it is a fairly committed way of doing it, as you say."
 
Another snippet plucked from an interview, this time with Pratchett

I'd like to talk a bit about the practical side of being a writer. You've said you are from the Carpentry School of Writing. And you think it's very important that writers work on their craft. Could you expand on that a bit?

Okay. I have to say that I change the metaphor about once a week. But it may help if I give you an idea of how I go about writing.
I'm about 10,000 words into my next book. Do I know what it is about? Yes, I do know what it is about, it's just that I'm not telling myself. I can see bits of the story and I know the story is there. This is what I call draft zero. This is private. No one ever, ever gets to see draft zero. This is the draft that you write to tell yourself what the story is.

Someone asked me recently how to guard against writing on auto-pilot. I responded that writing on auto-pilot is very, very important! I sit there and I bash the stuff out. I don't edit -- I let it flow. The important thing is that the next day I sit down and edit like crazy. But for the first month or so of writing a book I try to get the creative side of the mind to get it down there on the page. Later on I get the analytical side to come along and chop the work into decent lengths, edit it and knock it into the right kind of shape.

Everyone finds their own way of doing things. I certainly don't sit down and plan a book out before I write it. There's a phrase I use called "The Valley Full of Clouds." Writing a novel is as if you are going off on a journey across a valley. The valley is full of mist, but you can see the top of a tree here and the top of another tree over there. And with any luck you can see the other side of the valley. But you cannot see down into the mist. Nevertheless, you head for the first tree. At this stage in the book, I know a little about how I want to start. I know some of the things that I want to do on the way. I think I know how I want it to end. This is enough. The thing now is to get as much down as possible.

If necessary, I will write the ending fairly early on in the process. Now that ending may not turn out to be the real ending by the time that I have finished. But I will write down now what I think the conclusion of the book is going to be. It's all a technique, not to get over writer's block, but to get 15,000 or 20,000 words of text under my belt. When you've got that text down, then you can work on it. Then you start giving yourself ideas.
 
Writing a novel is as if you are going off on a journey across a valley. The valley is full of mist, but you can see the top of a tree here and the top of another tree over there. And with any luck you can see the other side of the valley. But you cannot see down into the mist. Nevertheless, you head for the first tree.

This is very close to a description of how I work. I used to say it was like swimming across a wide body of water. Before you get in, you may see some landmark on the far side, but once you start plowing through the waves, you will get only an occasional glimpse of where you're heading for. Still, you carry on, and the closer you get, the more certain the destination becomes.

I also recognize the importance of bashing out the "zero draft" without letting the left-brain editor interfere. The way I've put it: Writing the first draft is like hitting the beach on D Day. You don't stop to mourn the dead or comfort the wounded. You get off the beach because, if you don't, you'll die there.
 
This is very close to a description of how I work. I used to say it was like swimming across a wide body of water. Before you get in, you may see some landmark on the far side, but once you start plowing through the waves, you will get only an occasional glimpse of where you're heading for. Still, you carry on, and the closer you get, the more certain the destination becomes.

I also recognize the importance of bashing out the "zero draft" without letting the left-brain editor interfere. The way I've put it: Writing the first draft is like hitting the beach on D Day. You don't stop to mourn the dead or comfort the wounded. You get off the beach because, if you don't, you'll die there.
The first part is similar to my way of working, but the second part is quite different. I tend to hide behind a dead body or dig a hole in the sand while I stop to reassess my position (edit), before scuttling on to my next surveillance point. If you are looking for a fast invasion, I'm not your guy!
 
The first part is similar to my way of working, but the second part is quite different. I tend to hide behind a dead body or dig a hole in the sand while I stop to reassess my position (edit), before scuttling on to my next surveillance point. If you are looking for a fast invasion, I'm not your guy!

The warning is mainly aimed at those who keep rewriting the opening chapters and never finish the first draft.
 
The warning is mainly aimed at those who keep rewriting the opening chapters and never finish the first draft.
Good point. This is what slowed me down a lot in my early writing days. I do write faster now, but I am still unable to move on at any point in a work unless I'm reasonably happy and 'know' I can fix any remaining issues during my final edits. This certainly is of great benefit when I get to those edits, as there is often relatively little to do, but the actual writing can be painfully slow at times. Skip-ahead-a-phobia, I call it.
 
I also recognize the importance of bashing out the "zero draft" without letting the left-brain editor interfere. The way I've put it: Writing the first draft is like hitting the beach on D Day. You don't stop to mourn the dead or comfort the wounded. You get off the beach because, if you don't, you'll die there.

Wise words, although something I'm still struggling with. Although 9 times out of 10 on the redraft I like the bits where I didn't stop to think better than the bits where I did.
 
A little bit on the process he has for worldbuilding from author John Scalzi:

Q: You’ve talked about how when you’re world-building, you like to make sure your worlds are “at least two questions deep.” Meaning they hold up to scrutiny under one question and a follow-up. When creating a new world like you did for The Collapsing Empire, do you spend a lot of time fleshing out the world first, or do you focus on the core elements of the book and add additional “world-building” elements around it?

A: A lot of my world building [for The Collapsing Empire] comes from going back 3 or 4 years when I was first thinking about this idea. The first idea I had was about the faster-than-light system of The Flow. It is a thing that allows people to travel quickly but it’s not something they’re in control of. It’s something you get carried by like a river or an ocean current. I just thought about that for a couple of years and how it would work, and how the universe will build around that. And eventually, I thought about what sort of crisis you put into this fiction. Just like a river will change its course sometimes, I had The Flow do that and think about what that means for the universe. And then you start writing it, and you realize that this world you thought was bulletproof actually isn’t. Because once you start writing, you realize all the plot holes and inconsistencies that your brain didn’t tell you about. So when you actually drill down, you think, “Now I have to explain that.”

Rest of the interview is here for those interested: http://nerdreactor.com/2017/03/08/i...tar-warsstar-trek-debate/#v52JhvExepTJfIhj.99
 
Junot Diaz:
Only a little bit about his process but still interesting:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/21/junot-d-az-how-i-write.html

Love this:

"The whole culture is telling you to hurry, while the art tells you to take your time. Always listen to the art."

...

Being unaware of this thread I posted a link to a George Saunders piece in a separate thread.

http://www.sffworld.com/forum/threads/george-saunders-what-writers-really-do-when-they-write.51323/
 
The Saunders piece is a nice description of the right brain-left brain dialogue. (The left brain is the one that says "Yes.") I disagree a bit on the pins and readers analogy though. The readers don't insist that the pins land in a certain way -- they wait to see where and how the author is going to land them. Some may be disappointed but others will not be. But I thought it was a very clear piece and a good example of why most writers need to not stiffle their first draft writing, no matter how much of a mess it seems to be to them.
 
The warning is mainly aimed at those who keep rewriting the opening chapters and never finish the first draft.

Yes. I used to do that, then tried the 'write a draft and then edit' option, but eventually went back to editing as I go, because I found it more efficient.

Joe Lansdale says something similar: https://strandmag.com/the-rules-of-being-a-professional-writer/

"I avoid multiple drafts. I find this just confuses me. I correct as I go. Next morning, I reread what I wrote the day before, revise if needed, and continue."

I think it requires first getting to the point where you don't make big structural mistakes when writing the story, so you're not having to go back and write new chapters or cut a lot out.
 
Last edited:
This Twitter thread where author Delilah S. Dawson is talking about writing first drafts was funny. You'll notice that it's in contrast to Lansdale above. That's the interesting bit -- they tackle it differently. Dawson's way is a bit more common, but whatever works, works.

https://twitter.com/DelilahSDawson/status/888031626361491456
 
New Rule: Don't write an article, essay extended anything on twitter, use appropriate tools.
 
Back
Top