Science Fiction Categories: A Proposal

Science In Fiction
Do writers of fiction then, have an obligation to get the science right? In places where it doesn’t fit, do excuses have to be made? How far can we suspend our disbelief? Well, I don’t have the data to the last question but I have some ideas about the others.
http://teenskepchick.org/2013/03/06/science-in-fiction/

The examples are all of movies. I allow more leeway on movies but it is still annoying when it is obviously wrong.

psik
 
What a long and interesting thread. I think I get what the OP was driving at, and I personally would find some kind of rating of "science usage" interesting. I'm poking around for a new novel to start reading and I'd refer to this rating, but not so much as to prevent me from checking the work out for myself.

I think one aspect that wasn't discussed (or was and I missed it) is HOW the science is applied in the story. Regardless of how hard or soft or handwavium (love that term) it is, I want to know HOW it was used in the story.

Was it:
1) Used as merely a backdrop for the story, making it almost gratuitous
2) Used as an integral part of the story, but still not the central point of the story
3) Used as the central point of the story to posit some new idea
(and of course there could be a mix)

So as an example of #1 I think of the zillion Star Trek episodes (ok pretend they're books) where the fact that it's Star Trek barely matters, like when the story centers around Whorfs kids or something like that.
For #2 I think of something like Becalmed In Hell by Niven. Lots of good hard science, pretty integral to the story, but the ideas presented aren't really THE story.
And for #3 I think the perfect example is Contact by Sagan. The science is part and parcel of the message of the story (see the book, not the movie so much which was watered down as far as the science content was concerned).

To me knowing this little scale is helpful when I'm considering a book. Doesn't enter into a value judgment though because even some of those Whorf-based ones were great. But I'd like to know ahead of time where a story stands. I personally like the #3 most. Others may like other categories of course.
 
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So as an example of #1 I think of the zillion Star Trek episodes (ok pretend they're books) where the fact that it's Star Trek barely matters, like when the story centers around Whorfs kids or something like that.

I once saw the science fiction in Star Trek described as "rubbery". Although not very informative about science the show could still often be thought provoking on the subject in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unnatural_Selection_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

I am wondering if we will have to have some kind of genetic engineering disaster before people get some idea how dangerous this might be. Some people seem to think that GM foods must be good and others think it must be bad.


Marooned Off Vesta: Trying to figure out science fiction and poetry
http://maroonedoffvesta.blogspot.com/2012/12/coincidentally-about-5175-words.html

psik
 
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Changed story #1 from Red Nails to Queen of the Black Coast.

It came out in Project Gutenberg in Feb. 2013.

It's a shorter story and I think shows more about Conan's personality.

psik
 
Oh, psikey. Still on Star Wars, but at least off of economics for now ;)

It's a weird world when I fully agree with psikey. I actually would like some kind of a "Holey-ness" rating on the science in SF. For me it can really ruin my enjoyment. Basic rookie mistakes are especially annoying. Like I saw Iron Man 3 over the weekend, and some people fall out of a plane, Iron Man goes to save them, and then the plane blows up, and then the chunks of the plane go whistling by the by the people who fell out of the plane nearly a full minute before, and the fat guy is falling faster than the others. Now, granted, the explosion of the plane could have accelerated some of the pieces past terminal velocity, but that sure isn't what was depicted. And the fat guy being fat is a non issue, too. I notice that kind of thing, and it bothers me, and detracts from the story for me.

I recognize it doesn't bother everyone. But it also bothers me that a lot of people think that if you dropped an airplane-sized hunk of debris and a person at the same time, the debris would get to the ground first. This misconception is reinforced by inaccurate science in stories all the time, both in written fiction and film. It's different if you know it's wrong and tolerate it anyway to enjoy the story than if you don't know any better because everything you read/watch always gets it wrong.

It's painfully annoying. And as a teacher, it's extra annoying because of the amount of effort it takes to disabuse kids of foolish notions perpetuated by such inaccuracy. Some kids even think their teachers are actually the ones who are wrong. Sadder still is when the teacher is wrong because they, too, saw it in a movie or read it in a book and assumed it was a reliable authority.

Pah!

What we need, psik, is not a rallying cry to get all the informed, hard SF people to band together and burn down the ignoramuses. What we need is a review website that you run, featuring very good reviews for all the normal reasons, that also includes a "Holey Science" score -- and this score should apply to every review that gets done, whether it's SF or F or General Fiction.

One of the peculiar things about the nation of Turkey is that there's a cultural superstition about hot and cold. If it's even remotely cool out, the Turks will crank the heat to keep you warm and therefore healthy. The trouble is, when you're sitting on a bus of 20 or more people in stifling, humid heat, you're actually creating the ideal growth and transmission circumstances for infectious agents. So the belief about warm=healthy is paired with the actual warm=unhealthy. And no matter how much science you show to the people who cling most fervently to this belief, they persist in believing it, and keep wrapping their babies inside snow suits in the middle of summer.

All you have to do to make something true is repeat it enough. Whatever gets repeated the most wins. Bad science gets repeated all the time. And as far as that goes, if I call myself a science fiction fan, then I ought to know the difference between accurate and inaccurate science, and I ought to expect that absolute basic science literacy is present even in non-SF tales, and I ought to call it out when I see it.

But then people call me pedantic and that explains why I have so few friends... ;)
 
All you have to do to make something true is repeat it enough. Whatever gets repeated the most wins. Bad science gets repeated all the time. And as far as that goes, if I call myself a science fiction fan, then I ought to know the difference between accurate and inaccurate science, and I ought to expect that absolute basic science literacy is present even in non-SF tales, and I ought to call it out when I see it.

Are you telling me that the powdered Rhino horn I just bought is not going to cure my cold? Some of our fantasy beliefs are worse for the world than others I can live in a world with dumb movies, but what about one without Elephants and other true wonders :(
 
It's a weird world when I fully agree with psikey. I actually would like some kind of a "Holey-ness" rating on the science in SF. For me it can really ruin my enjoyment. Basic rookie mistakes are especially annoying.

(Passes out from shock!)

psik
 
We've found that the show Mythbusters is quite excellent for dealing with movie science, as those are often the myths they are busting. For instance, they did an experiment that shows it's highly unlikely you can stay on clinging to a moving car roof when it's going more than 40 mph. So now every time we see the car clinging or people dancing on trains in movies, my daughter and I giggle.

Another fun one is Intuitor Insulting Movie Physics: http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/ However, they haven't done any new movie reviews on their site since 2010, but the ones they have are quite a lot of fun.

And then there's Bill Nye the Science Guy, the astronauts up in the space station doing videos, and a host of others. The point of science is to question, test, retest and have others test, gather and analyze data, and draw conclusions based on the best evidence we have at the moment. And that's the basic goal of learning as well -- teaching the kids about thinking. Getting students to start thinking and acting on that method is certainly a chore, but the ones who do have been doing some pretty incredible stuff in science, engineering, environmentalism, entrepreneurship and the arts.
 
What a long and interesting thread. I think I get what the OP was driving at, and I personally would find some kind of rating of "science usage" interesting.

It is one thing for a reviewer to start to add something like this to the reviews that he or she is already doing. Maybe that catches on. Who knows?

It's something entirely different for a person who, as far as I know, reviews nothing but says "I want you guys to all do this from now on."

A good review is really about what the reviewer wants to write. A good review never (well, rarely) comes out of a pre-set checklist of stuff to address. And to add, I personally would not be interested in evaluating the scientific quality of a story. I am not a scientist, first of all. Second of all I am not interested in posting something like that on line where scientists and 9/11 deniers alike could tear my reivews apart.

Maybe the OP should put a few reviews up and show us all how to do it.
 
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Maybe the OP should put a few reviews up and show us all how to do it.

What I did was provide five archetypes for how science is treated within the story, not exactly how correct or incorrect it was.

http://www.sffworld.com/forums/show...ies-A-Proposal&p=709804&viewfull=1#post709804

Story #5, All Day September, is the truly hard SF story but I was wondering how a condenser would be designed to operate in a vacuum or was it inside his living quarters with air to function as a radiator. No one has commented on all five archetypes so far. In fact I don't know if anyone has read or listened to any of them.

psik
 
Well, I only saw three stories in your first post here, and previous to that I had heard of none of them. Authors as well.

I would like to suggest a characteristic to be evaluated in science fiction works.

Not sure how listing unknown stories is akin - in any way - to doing an evaluation of them. So, my point remians, do an evaluation of them using your criteria and show us what were missing. Show us how this would be helpful or useful. Because I personally am not seeing it.
 
Psikey's system isn't really a review system. It's a classification system, and it's a pretty basic one that's been around a long time:

Category #1: No to virtually no explanation of the science basis and background of the story.
Category #2: A moderate to slim amount of detail and explanation of the science basis of the story.
Category #3: A detailed, considerable amount of detail and explanation of the science basis of the story.

It's fairly easy to identify Category #1 stories. It's the arguments over #2 and #3 that often rage in SF fanhood.
 
Well, I only saw three stories in your first post here, and previous to that I had heard of none of them. Authors as well.

Not sure how listing unknown stories is akin - in any way - to doing an evaluation of them. So, my point remians, do an evaluation of them using your criteria and show us what were missing. Show us how this would be helpful or useful. Because I personally am not seeing it.

I expanded it to five stories.

Three of the authors I had never heard of either. I had only read stuff by Robert E. Howard and H. Beam Piper. I read most of the Conan stuff ages ago but the only Piper book I recall having read is Little Fuzzy. Several years ago I got sick of buying recent books that got plenty of good reviews on the Internet but didn't appeal to me when I bought and read them so I decided to start perusing the SF in Project Gutenberg. I figured if I had to risk wasting time reading stuff I might not like I might as well get it for free. Needless to say there is plenty of mediocrity and drivel in Project Gutenberg. LOL I ran across stuff by Randall Garrett that I am sure I read back in the dim mists of time but would never have remembered the author. There are works by Mack Reynolds, Harry Harrison, Robert Sheckley, Philip K. Dick, Andre Norton and, of course, H. G. Wells and Jules Verne, plus a few more known authors.

It wasn't until much later that I thought about making these categories. To me it is as though many people today who talk about science fiction do not care about the science at all and will call almost anything science fiction. It did not seem to be this bad in the 60s or the 70s. Even the producers of Star Wars admitted it was not science fiction in 1977 and called it Space Fantasy, but today there are people who will get angry if you say it is not sci-fi. One person on this site recommended a book that had a demon that could turn itself into a working laptop computer. I stopped reading the junk when I got to that point.

I do not doubt that there are people for whom these categories would be irrelevant because they have nothing to do with their criteria for a good read of whatever they are inclined to call science fiction. I do not have a problem with that. But I suspect there are others who would like to have a better idea about what they are getting into before they spend the time and possibly the money. Admittedly for me the time is more important than the money. But wasting the money just makes me more angry when the book is junk.

I have no comprehension of what you mean by this:
Not sure how listing unknown stories is akin - in any way - to doing an evaluation of them.

By providing the stories as text and audio I am supplying a way for people to sample the work for themselves to understand the category. If I used some well known stories there would always be some people who had not read them. These are all short stories I am using, not novels. They are all better than average stories in my rarely humble opinion. If anything the hard science fiction story is the worst of the lot, the characters are quite cardboardish. Number 4, Omnilingual, by Piper is the best example of intellectual SF with something meaningful to say. Number 2 is science fiction but is scientifically no better than the Conan fantasy story by Robert E. Howard. It just has an alien and the reader must "assume" he has advanced technology beyond current human understanding. So it is entertaining but not informative. It got nominated for a Hugo.

I find story number 3 quite "charming" and it uses a stargate just like number 2, but adds a technobabble explanation involving "mobius space". I have been to a science museum that had a display of a mobius strip that must have cost several thousand dollars to produce, so this work has informative jargon and some astronomy.

So for these categories to be of any use people would have to read the works or listen to the audiobooks. That is why I provided all of the links. So if you are not interested in doing that then I guess there is not much more to say.

http://www.sffworld.com/forums/show...ies-A-Proposal&p=709804&viewfull=1#post709804

I changed #1 from Red Nails to Queen of the Black Coast. It is a shorter story but I think it better shows Howard's creation of Conan's thought processes. Even though Conan is fantasy, I have read plenty of science fiction with characters having less intellectual depth than Conan. I would rather reread old Conan stories than Banks Culture books even if they fit within my definition of science fiction. But that would involve classifying characteristics other than what I am talking about here. I am not suggesting this as the only aspect to be evaluated. We just need other works as examples of other characteristics.

psik
 
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Psikey's system isn't really a review system. It's a classification system, and it's a pretty basic one that's been around a long time:

Category #1: No to virtually no explanation of the science basis and background of the story.
Category #2: A moderate to slim amount of detail and explanation of the science basis of the story.
Category #3: A detailed, considerable amount of detail and explanation of the science basis of the story.

It's fairly easy to identify Category #1 stories. It's the arguments over #2 and #3 that often rage in SF fanhood.


I didn't get that. OP says its for "evaluation," which is why I quoted that line of the OP.
 
I didn't get that. OP says its for "evaluation," which is why I quoted that line of the OP.

Th OP says:
I think #1 and #2 are both better written than #3 and #2 somewhat better than #1 in that respect, but that is not the characteristic I am referring to for this evaluation. This is just about how they treat the science and or engineering empowering the story.
How is science fiction different from and similar to other forms of fiction?

Things like characterization and dialogue and "quality of writing" apply to all of them.

But it it the relevance and treatment of the science that makes it different.

Theodore Sturgeon said, "A science fiction story is a story built around human beings, with a human problem and a human solution, which would not have happened at all without its scientific content."

But there are still many variations in science fiction so I was simply trying to provide examples to serve as archetypes for reference on the treatment of the science.

psik
 
I didn't get that. OP says its for "evaluation," which is why I quoted that line of the OP.

As Psikey points out, he's "evaluating" the stories on their science content, not their use of language, imagery and general writing skill, which are not unimportant but of less interest to him. Many past hard SF stories weren't dazzling on the writing front, but are valued for their science ideas and treatments. The New Wave in SF in the 1960's and 1970's, which concentrated mainly though not exclusively on sociological SF, post-apocalypse, dystopias and utopias, etc., with an eye to concentrating on writing and language skill and sociological themes such as politics, sexual issues, and culture more than scientific ones, is not a particularly interesting movement to Psikey. (Although he does like Bujold's Miles stories even though they are an inheritor of New Wave SF.) Essentially, Psikey feels that only hard SF and some other stories that use some hard science fit the rubric of SF, per Sturgeon's definition. (Never mind that many of Sturgeon's SF stories didn't fit the definition.) Other stories that get called science fiction -- space opera, time travel, etc. he regards as not really having to do with real science and not real science fiction. He may read them, but he finds the lack of interest in hard SF stories in more recent times puzzling. He finds some aspects of quantum physics acceptable as hard science and other aspects as not really science. (How do I know all this? We've had this conversation many times.)

This is not at all a strange viewpoint in SF fandom. Many fans of SF feel that SF should be a term reserved mainly for hard SF. Other stories may be good, even seminal, but since they don't deal chiefly with a biological, chemistry, physics or engineering problem, they view them as fantasy or some other form of speculative fiction. (Although I haven't run into as many with Psikey's view on quantum matters.) Many others have a wider definition of SF, which all basically boil down to there being a scientific basis for the story and its universe, rather than a fantastical one, which can then range from background/world to central hard science issue. And the sub-categories that we use for the category SF market are based mainly on the science in the stories, what kind and how it is used -- hard SF, sociological SF, cyberpunk, space opera, military SF, etc., reflecting that we tend to view SF stories through the science lens for general content when describing them.

So Psikey's scale basically is just a three prong breakdown of the usual SF market. Category 1 is alternate history, time travel, comic SF, most space opera, some sociological SF, post-apocalyptic SF, some alien contact or invasion stories, etc. -- things that occur with the background of science and the use of some science but are not about the science and explaining the science. Category 2 includes most sociological SF, some space opera, some alien contact, military SF with its weapons, cyberpunk, planetary SF, etc. -- things in which science is involved and may have some explanation about it but hard sciences are not necessarily central and the main focus. And Category 3 is the hard SF stories, along with a few that have hard SF with solid explanations as sub-plots -- stories that mainly focus on hard science problems or issues or have them be integral to the story. Basically, it's a how hard is your science fiction scale, with 1 being not hard, 2 being moderately hard, 3 being very hard (and no, you cannot make jokes here.) As such, it's a quick notation about content.

But we already, as mentioned, have this scale somewhat in place in sub-categories. If a work is called space opera, then we know it's probably Category #1. A hard SF story is category #3. Cyberpunk is usually put in #2, unless it has very detailed explanations that computer and engineering folk do not consider hokum. Sociological SF is usually #2, etc. and will be focused on social science issues placed in a scientifically altered, usually future, reality. So we already use Psikey's scale pretty regularly in SF. Terming Category #1 books as not SF, however, no matter how much some SF fans want it, is not going to happen. They are part of the SF universe, using science -- hard science -- to create a story universe in which things could not happen without that hard science. But they are not focused on that hard science itself, but instead on the ramifications of the universe created by the hard science -- the culture, life, conflicts, moral questions, etc. of that universe, rather than exploring all the details of the science underneath, and often using the faintest of scientific speculations to give their story a science basis.

So John Scalzi's Old Man's War, military SF, would be in Psikey's Category #2. It has hard science very much creating the universe and the circumstances of it for the main characters, biological and technical processes are explained or partly explained, but the detail only goes so far. And the story is focused on issues related to that hard science underpinning but not about the science -- issues about aging, moral issues of war, politics, etc. And something like Peter Watts' Blindsight, hard SF, would be Category #3. Watts is very interested in action, politics, cultural issues, etc., and the story is about contact with aliens, but he offers detailed explorations of neurology, biology, physics and tech and the story centers on unraveling the hard science questions of the aliens' nature. Something like Flowers for Algernon or A Canticle for St. Leibowitz -- neither of them is without science, hard science as the underpinnings and critical factors of their universes. But in terms of detailed scientific content -- they don't really have it. And so both stories, seminal to SF, might be considered Category #1, or #2 at most. None of this has anything to do with writing quality. It's strictly about how much science material does the story have and how central it is.
 
As Psikey points out, he's "evaluating" the stories on their science content, not their use of language, imagery and general writing skill, which are not unimportant but of less interest to him.... (Although he does like Bujold's Miles stories even though they are an inheritor of New Wave SF.) Essentially, Psikey feels that only hard SF and some other stories that use some hard science fit the rubric of SF, per Sturgeon's definition.... We've had this conversation many times.

But we seem to never successfully communicate because you constantly exaggerate what I am saying.

I do not regard Ender's Game as HARD science fiction, but what makes the story interesting is the psychological manipulation of children and does make one wonder how much it goes on in real life and every culture accepts it as normal.

The science in a story is something more easily evaluated as a separate charcteristic while others would be very subjective. How do you decide how good the dialogue is in a story? How do you judge the quality of characterization? Aren't both of those related? Don't you evaluate a character in part by verbal interaction with other characteristics.

Lois Bujold had an engineer for a father and I think it shows. It is more obvious in Falling Free than any other work but it shows in other stories, especially Komarr. In Barrayar it is in Cordelia's conversation with Vaggan that Bujold displays her attitude about science. But it is more integral to Komarr with wormhole physics not doing what the perps expect and another scientists needing to be called in to solve the issue. But the vast majority of reviews say nothing about it even though the entire story depends on The Cold Equations being gotten wrong.

But it is not just science fiction that mixes technology into sociological effects. The Magnificent Ambersons which won a Pulitzer Prize in 1919 is about the effect of automobiles on American cities and the fortunes of a ficticious family before World War I in the US. But the author, Booth Tarkington, could watch the changes in the country from the age of ten, in 1879 until the beginning of World War I, after the Model-T had a few years to affect the economy.

http://www.bartleby.com/160/

The Model T made its debut in 1908 with a purchase price of $825.00. Over ten thousand were sold in its first year, establishing a new record. Four years later the price dropped to $575.00 and sales soared. By 1914, Ford could claim a 48% share of the automobile market.

Central to Ford's ability to produce an affordable car was the development of the assembly line that increased the efficiency of manufacture and decreased its cost. Ford did not conceive the concept, he perfected it. Prior to the introduction of the assembly line, cars were individually crafted by teams of skilled workmen - a slow and expensive procedure. The assembly line reversed the process of automobile manufacture. Instead of workers going to the car, the car came to the worker who performed the same task of assembly over and over again. With the introduction and perfection of the process, Ford was able to reduce the assembly time of a Model T from twelve and a half hours to less than six hours.

Sales passed 250,000 in 1914. By 1916, as the price dropped to $360 for the basic touring car, sales reached 472,000.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/ford.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T

Bujold has the "uterine replicator" changing Barrayaran culture but Miles could not have lived without it so it satisfies Sturgeon's definition.

psik
 
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I said that you accept as science fiction stories that are either hard SF or have science or engineering as a major integral sub-plot such as Bujold's military SF. Ender's Game would be Cat. #2 on your scale, and therefore not hard SF as you say -- it's clearly not Cat. #3. And Bujold is clearly also Cat. #2, but there is enough science in the background and integral to the political and military events of the plots that you would, I assume, consider it a SF series. The criteria you use is the criteria a lot of SF fans use, as I said. However, other SF fans would debate with you about how much scientific content there is in Dan Simmons' Hyperion, which you would, I think, put in Cat. #1, and you have said that you do not consider the series SF. But others would put it in Cat. #2. So science content is not entirely cut and dried. There are debates on whether a story is hard SF or not, whether it has workable, visible science, etc. But the amount of science is more cut and dried than other things and works better for SF than setting, and so the general science content of stories has become the defining motif of sub-categories in the category SF market. Your three tier system is broader, but it essentially operates the same way as the regular sub-categories, with less specialization such as military SF, etc.
 
The New Wave in SF in the 1960's and 1970's, which concentrated mainly though not exclusively on sociological SF, post-apocalypse, dystopias and utopias, etc., with an eye to concentrating on writing and language skill and sociological themes such as politics, sexual issues, and culture more than scientific ones, is not a particularly interesting movement to Psikey. (Although he does like Bujold's Miles stories even though they are an inheritor of New Wave SF.) Essentially, Psikey feels that only hard SF and some other stories that use some hard science fit the rubric of SF, per Sturgeon's definition.

I ran your lasts two posts thru my text to MP3 software an listened to them several times. I could write an essay on what you have said but do not want to spend that much time.

When have I ever said anything about The New Wave? If I haven't said anything about it then how do you know what I think of it? The fact of the matter is that I do not talk to much about what I regard as SUBJECTIVE. It is important to me but I do not assume it is important to anyone else.

In fact I told someone on this board, "You don't just read a book, the book reads you."

The treatment of science in a story can be more OBJECTIVELY evaluated than imagery or language skill but that does not mean it is the most important thing about the entire work to me. I JUST DON'T SAY WHAT I THINK many times because I presume it is only important to me. I am not aware of anyone provide stories to use as references before so what I am doing is not like what SF fans have been doing for years. I am attempting to avoid the vagueness. Personally I prefer stories #1 and #2 to the hardest sci-fi story which is #5. But How much I LIKE them is not the point. That is subjective. But #5 could be far more useful in and educational setting than 1 or 2.

Now Hyperion presents a perfect example of non-science which has to be fantasy. The case of the archaeologist who gets younger one day at a time but only if she falls asleep. But since she turns into a little girl and baby then she also has to lose mass. But during the day she eats and behaves normally. So she has to get younger by 40 hours during the 8 hours that she sleeps. But I found the story of her parents raising her again backwards very touching. So the best story was the worst science, but some people want to call it science fiction.

Your comments remind me of something from Asimov's Foundation story. The politician who talks a lot but says nothing.

"But then," interposed Sutt, "how would Mayor Hardin account for Lord Dorwin's assurances of Empire support? They seemed" He shrugged. "Well, they seemed satisfactory."
Hardin threw himself back in the chair. "You know, that's the most interesting part of the whole business. I'll admit I had thought his Lordship a most consummate donkey when I first met him but it turned out that he was actually an accomplished diplomat and a most clever man. I took the liberty of recording all his statements."
There was a flurry, and Pirenne opened his mouth in horror.
"What of it?" demanded Hardin. "I realize it was a gross breach of hospitality and a thing no so-called gentleman would do. Also, that if his lordship had caught on, things might have been unpleasant; but he didn't, and I have the record, and that's that. I took that record, had it copied out and sent that to Holk for analysis, also."
Lundin Crast said, "And where is the analysis?"
"That," replied Hardin, "is the interesting thing. The analysis was the most difficult of the three by all odds. When Holk, after two days of steady work, succeeded in eliminating meaningless statements, vague gibberish, useless qualifications in short, all the goo and dribble he found he had nothing left. Everything canceled out."
"Lord Dorwin, gentlemen, in five days of discussion didn't say one damned thing, and said it so you never noticed. There are the assurances you had from your precious Empire."

You accuse me of not saying anything that sci-fi fans haven't been saying for years. But point out stuff I do not recall discussing while claiming to be an expert on me. I used this site to do a search on what I supposedly said about anything involving "quantum" or "quanta". Not much turned up by me. I don't actually recall reading much SF talking about it and usually then it is the author throwing the word around and implying some quantum effect can be reproduced at the macro level.

Also, I would not try to put all of Bujold's work in the same category. Falling Free is close to #5. But Mountains of Mourning is almost not science fiction. It is on an alien planet thereby implying FTL but the only fancy technology is used beside a truth drug called fast penta. Komarr I would give a 4 and Warrior's Apprentice a weak 3.
 

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