A Sci Fi Reading Odyssey - 50 Novels

To be fair I was thinking more about Alien monsters. Mind control was common in the pulps - I was thinking pulp magazines rather than novels, Gary - you may know more than me on this, but certainly here in the UK SF novels, and even paperbacks were not that common at that time. The magazines were where it was at, I believe.
I'm surprised they considered that a problem in the 50s. Were female readers a sizable part of the SF market back then?
Definitely not, although there were some. Same for female SF/Fantasy authors.

But that comment was made by RAH historian William Patterson in the introduction to the Virginia Edition of Puppet Masters, if I remember right. (It may not be exactly that - I'd need to go and check it up.)

One of the oft quoted comments from contemporary readers is that old SF doesn't relate to them because there were no girls/women characters of note in them. Heinlein did go some way to change this, IMO, but readers seem to forget that writers were usually writing what was wanted/expected by their known/expected audience.
 
I think both Mark and I agree about Stranger, far from my fav.
Two thoughts came to me:
Thought #1: I suspect you folk didn't grow up Roman Catholic. The first chapter's title drew me in and the rest of the story solidified my regard.
Thought #2: I'm not at all familiar with Jolly Olde in the 60s; but we had San Francisco, the Village in NYC; Kerouac and Leary and American Bandstand. And Vietnam. Stranger fit the mood exactly. Add to that it had my favorite Heinlein character: Jubal Harshaw.
 
Two thoughts came to me:
Thought #1: I suspect you folk didn't grow up Roman Catholic. The first chapter's title drew me in and the rest of the story solidified my regard.
Thought #2: I'm not at all familiar with Jolly Olde in the 60s; but we had San Francisco, the Village in NYC; Kerouac and Leary and American Bandstand. And Vietnam. Stranger fit the mood exactly. Add to that it had my favorite Heinlein character: Jubal Harshaw.
Hereford, would never contend that it's not a good book or an influential one. (though would have to re-read to judge "artisitc merit" for myself) Just a quirky matter of taste and of timing, growing up, etc. So I get that it fit very well into a certain time-period and milieu.
 
I think that for one of the last really good Heinlein for me I would Go for The Moon is a Harsh Mistress . For me it is one of the best early examinations of AI proceeding to what Today they call the singularity and unlike almost all the other early looks At artificial intelligence During the mid 1960s tended to cast it as evil or at best uncaring of the puny human brain. I just really like the world building he did on this one as well. It was one of his last before he turned into the late Heinlein of books like Friday. I understand that it gets down checked by some critics for its Libertarian slant but Heinlein's stance on that is well known and in this book he outlines a few other possibilities for the future lunar nation and seems to acknowledge that a libertarian society is another variety of utopian society that really only works when everyone is perfect enough for it to have a chance. I consider it one of the best mid 60s hard science fiction novels and perhaps a bit over looked by folks who have yet to reach middle age.
Mark have you given it one of your retrospective reviews?
 
I think that for one of the last really good Heinlein for me I would Go for The Moon is a Harsh Mistress .
I like that one as well- definitely on of my RAH favs. I see it trashed frequently as a stiff, but I think there's a lot of stuff in there and find it a very entertaining novel.
 
I think that for one of the last really good Heinlein for me I would Go for The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
It's on the re-read list here - that and Friday... but I agree with what's said. If I remember right, it was one of the last times an editor (Frederik Pohl) stood up to RAH, when it was published in Galaxy, although he had tried selling it elsewhere first, to no avail.
 
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Martian Time-Slip by Phillip K. Dick [1983]
Gollancz
226 pages
Reader Response by Matt H. [v 1.09] from Reading Odyssey
Rating: Many good points, but overall not highly recommended

Story and Setting

In the not too distant future, human beings have colonized Mars. Earth is over-crowded and a group of countries, organized by the UN, have established permanent settlements near the canals. But Mars proves stubbornly inhospitable; after much time and effort the colonies fail to prosper and expand. It is difficult to recruit colonists because Mars remains a polluted, arid, dusty, mostly wasteland of a planet. Water is the premier commodity and is rationed. Also, instances of mental illness, especially schizophrenia are unusually common among the Martian colonists. The patients end up in an institution called Ben Gurion (BG) in the Israeli sector. There is also corruption, and even petty gangsterism on Mars. It is forbidden to import many items from Earth, especially luxury foods. But the black-market and smuggling enterprises are thriving. Many must partake in this underground economy in order to survive.

Mars has an indigenous humanoid population, the Bleekmen – desert nomads, very simple hunter-gatherers. They have become an underclass to the Earthlings and they and their culture are disappearing. Some have been “tamed” and work as household servants. Nevertheless they have their sacred desert places, odd abilities and mysterious, prophetic ways.

An overworked, virtuoso repairman, Jack Bohlen, by chance meets a very powerful man on Mars, Arnie Kott. He is at the top of the water hierarchy. Soon Kott has engaged him in an ambitious project involving prognostication and perhaps the actual manipulation of time itself. An autistic boy, Manfred, son of a recent suicide, is part of Arnie’s scheme. As the project progresses, Jack’s dormant schizophrenia is triggered and a string of time-fractured improbable events, real, imagined and indeterminant begin to mix with financial hardships, parental duties, marriages and martial affairs, acts of recklessness and revenge. A fatal drama unfolds. The inscrutable and powerful child, Manfred -- proves key in the incredible events, and to foreseeing a grim, horrendous future for himself and for the colonies on Mars.

Critical Reader Appraisal

In its skillful, imaginative portrayal of mental illness as well as in narrative technique and characterization, Martian Time-slip is very impressive. It has a multi-thread narrative that requires many themes and plot-lines to come together into a climactic whole, and with all the ideas in this book that’s a tall order. Though the prose was exceptionally clear and easy to comprehend and the characterization sketched deftly though action, inner and outer dialog and narration, I personally felt something missing at the end. Upon further thought, several significant themes seemed somewhat orphaned. It attempted much and in the end delivered mostly. Still to me it did not quite seem to pull off all that it so very ambitiously promised.

It’s an engagingly depressing world. Mars is unglamorous at best, in fact it is pretty awful. You can feel and smell the dilapidation, the fear, loneliness, hopelessness and the fatigue. The characters are caught up in realistic events of daily life – the grind of work, living paycheck to paycheck, nasty bosses, bills, local political corruption, a rotten infrastructure as well as trying to maintain their mental health. From the first pages, you see moral tests failed by one character after another. You find unsympathetic aspects in virtually every one of them (almost as if the writer wanted to be sure of it) -- dishonesty, lust, weakness, unfaithfulness, victimization of others, selfishness in varying degrees. Jack’s father, before you actually meet him, sounds like he’s almost going to be a minor savior. But when he arrives he turns out to be as unlikeable as the rest. Though parentally caring - he is old-fashioned and moralizing, and is also a hard, amoral land speculator. Every part of life, the land itself and even the autistic child Manfred has a malevolence.

Arnie Kott, the “water baron” is a unique creation; he is racist, ruthless, corrupt and hedonistic. But somehow he is also “OK” in the eyes of his friends and fellow characters. I think the reader too, with find Arnie frustratingly hard to totally hate. His bigotry is reflexive and defensive, you see he’s no kind of ideologue, he’s just a very, very selfish man. You feel sorry for him because of his extreme recklessness and pride. You somehow have a delicious feeling, that grows throughout the book that he’s going to get it good. But Arnie is a fun guy, a great entertainer in a 1950’s-partying way. He is almost a child, but at the same time cynical and paranoid. He has the best illegal food items, obscenely expensive delicacies; he wastes water as a statement of his wealth. And of course he has the best booze and prettiest women. He has a razor-sharp sense of humor too, often racist, sometimes self-deprecating. You abhor Arnie, but have a sense he knows very well he is an a-hole. He is to be pitied so colossal is his hubris.

Occasionally one felt the characters or narrator were discoursing on subjects to the slight detriment of the story. Several passages function to convey the writer's views and insights on mental illness and other speculative thoughts. It’s still interesting reading. Probably some of the diagnostic and psychological categories he proclaims, may be in some ways out-of-date

The resolution of the story is functional, with the major loose ends tied up. But I had hoped that Manfred and Arnie would trade futures. The "water witch" was an intriguing, if creepy object, that one felt sure would play a larger part. I wanted greater significance for the learning machines, and the theme of institutional indoctrination and brain-washing of an entire generation through robot teachers. The Bleekman, Helio became a major character, but he felt a little stranded story-wise at the end. Likewise I hoped the themes of Eugenics, and euthanasia would be part of a grand tie-in too.

So while the closing drama satisfied in certain ways, it was not on first reading the grand satisfaction that I hoped. It’s probable that on second-reading this might be improved. Again, it’s a worth-while book, with much impressive technique, intriguing speculation, and scary, real-sounding insider views of mental illness. And, as one will see from the first pages, it’s a sophisticated story of morality, cruelty and humanity. Gubble-gubble!
 
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Haven't read it either.

Another boring story.
Forty years ago I was visiting my dad in California. He had a neighbor who, as I remember, had had two horror novels published. No, I do not remember his name. Dad had him over for dinner as he knew my interests.
The guy was friends with Philip Dick. He drove Dick to a therapy session in a run down warehouse district of LA. As they were driving slowly looking for the location, they passed a wild looking woman walking along who the guy described as " The sort of person who if you saw her you would immediately cross the street. " Dick asked him to stop and back up as "He had never seen a more beautiful woman." They stopped the car, but my dad's friend said that he discouraged Dick from jumping out. They drove on - - -
 
Haven't read it either.

Another boring story.
Forty years ago I was visiting my dad in California. He had a neighbor who, as I remember, had had two horror novels published. No, I do not remember his name. Dad had him over for dinner as he knew my interests.
The guy was friends with Philip Dick. He drove Dick to a therapy session in a run down warehouse district of LA. As they were driving slowly looking for the location, they passed a wild looking woman walking along who the guy described as " The sort of person who if you saw her you would immediately cross the street. " Dick asked him to stop and back up as "He had never seen a more beautiful woman." They stopped the car, but my dad's friend said that he discouraged Dick from jumping out. They drove on - - -
One gets the impression from his fiction and from reading biographical material, that he was inclined to impulsive behavior...o_O :D
 
PKD, impulsive?? Imposserous! He liked random street-people, so?

Time-slip is impressive technique though, clear and disciplined even when depicting looney stuff. Everyone in the book is a self-doubting half-hearted scumbag... Interesting and realistic. It's pretty niffty as far as characterization goes.
 
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Good review Matt. You hit many of the points that Dick tends to exhibit in his writing; depressing futures that expose the fact that we may have reached the stars physically, it's still going to be a constant struggle for most of us. Dick can be pretty nihilistic.
 
Finished The Pillars of Eternity. (see review, item 341 of this thread)
For me it was a kitchen sink book. The author threw in different philosophies, motivations and (unconvincing) resolutions to every problem. Characters are introduced, trotted off stage, and only re-appear if/when another change of scene is needed to re-start the action. At first it reminded me of VanVogt in its pace, changing scenes constantly. But VV has some idea of where he is going. Resolutions, "philosophies", physical transformations, motivations, all were inconsistent. - not with alternatives but internally to themselves. The motivations of Boaz' government opposition was particularly weak (and inconsistent.)
I noticed three specific contradictions in the nature of the bone transformations alone.

Matt catches this in his review where he comments on philosophies being shattered. With new ones , even more puerile (my description) being trotted out. I don't see it as iconoclasm but as thowing in whatever fits the print.

Overall I do like his description & agree with much of Matt's review - not his conclusion. To edit what he said,

"If there was a slight (extreme) unappeased feeling when I finished it, that feeling was soundly overwhelmed (reinforced) by the overall recollection of this vivid (jumpy) powerful (weak) and meaningful (puerile) book.

Sorry Matt. I look forward to your reviews. Agree to disagree?

You've taken some time off. Still into it, I hope?
 
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Finished The Pillars of Eternity. (see review in page 17)
...
Sorry Matt. I look forward to your reviews. Agree to disagree?

You've taken some time off. Still into it, I hope?
Thanks for the detailed comments! I'm just happy to have a reader at all, agreed with or not. :) Will honestly look at all your points.

Formulating a response and will read your review. Wonder if there is even a slight hint of "expectation bias" at work? Perhaps not, but I get it myself and it can be hard to truly shake off. Since I gave the book a positive review a tendency could exist to approach it from - "Well, let's see if this is a great as Joe Schmoe says it is!" I read it with neutral expectations. Anyway, I will examine each of your points. Thanks. Still at the reviews... see head post for update.
 
I hope that you still intend to review Startide Rising, one of my favorite books. Don't be put off by the cover. If my memory serves me what you see as a spoiler is revealed in the first page of the book. I believe that until Mary Robinette Kowal won in 2019, Startide-- was the only work that won the Hugo, Nebula & Locus best novel awards. (Although her's were awarded for different years due to varying cutoff dates.)

A request to Vince W. You said that you were buying Pillars---. If you read it, could you give a capsule reaction?
I am interested in whether others come closer to Matt's basically positive opinion or my negative one. Of course it's all opinion, but insofar as we can give reasons for our reactions (and both Matt and I did) it's instructive. My reaction to Matt's reviews of books that I am familiar with is such that I have gone and picked up three he liked that I had missed. Score 2+, 1- :)
 
My copy arrived yesterday. It's the next book I intend to read, but I'm just finishing up Take Back Plenty by Colin Greenland. It's a fantastic read and deserves heaps of praise. If you haven't read it, you should.
 
I hope that you still intend to review Startide Rising, one of my favorite books. Don't be put off by the cover. If my memory serves...
Pogo, thanks. Still intending to read Startide, and looking forward to it. But having trouble finding it on Amazon. Says it's "currently unavailable".. a pain since I like to get my books from one source. I might have to get it from another site.
 
Finished The Pillars of Eternity. (see review, item 341 of this thread)
For me it was a kitchen sink book. The author threw in different philosophies, motivations and (unconvincing) resolutions to every problem. Characters are introduced, trotted off stage, and only re-appear if/when another change of scene is needed to re-start the action. At first it reminded me of VanVogt in its pace, changing scenes constantly. But VV has some idea of where he is going. Resolutions, "philosophies", physical transformations, motivations, all were inconsistent. - not with alternatives but internally to themselves. The motivations of Boaz' government opposition was particularly weak (and inconsistent.)
I noticed three specific contradictions in the nature of the bone transformations alone.
Pogo, well.. I wouldn't chose the word "puerile" to describe Pillars. If I were to criticise, I would chose "over-ambitious" or even "pretentious" (though for me, it worked overall). Didn't find it a kitchen sink book either... You have a secular view, colonaiderism, the alchemists, the Ibis aliens, and Boaz's own realizations... So, there are a lot of philosophies, but they are related and superseding. The philosophical underpinnings aren't perfect or unassailable, (nor is perhaps the science) but I took it mostly as entertainment, not a profound revelation of some final truth. Also, I didn't find there to be too many characters either. It's a very short book and packs a lot in there so it does have a slightly jumpy feel at times. For me it was bearable. I also mentioned that the prose has a certain roughness at times. -- it's not highly slick writing overall. There well maybe contraditions and logic flaws too, but they didn't jump out at me. The main premises and the story-arc I found to be quite good. Let's see what Vince has to say. :)
 
Review update: Trying to put Other Side of Here to rest with a review. I almost decided not to review it. It's a level or two below most of the others... Already mostly through Space Beagle. Can see a lot of apparent Sci Fi *roots* in there! Very cool monsters and an original "sub-plot"...
 
Pogo, well.. I wouldn't chose the word "puerile" to describe Pillars. If I were to criticise, I would chose "over-ambitious" or even "pretentious" (though for me, it worked overall). Didn't find it a kitchen sink book either... You have a secular view, colonaiderism, the alchemists, the Ibis aliens, and Boaz's own realizations... So, there are a lot of philosophies, but they are related and superseding. The philosophical underpinnings aren't perfect or unassailable, (nor is perhaps the science) but I took it mostly as entertainment, not a profound revelation of some final truth. Also, I didn't find there to be too many characters either. It's a very short book and packs a lot in there so it does have a slightly jumpy feel at times. For me it was bearable. I also mentioned that the prose has a certain roughness at times. -- it's not highly slick writing overall. There well maybe contraditions and logic flaws too, but they didn't jump out at me. The main premises and the story-arc I found to be quite good. Let's see what Vince has to say. :)
You're probably right that my use of puerile (childish, silly, immature, trivial) was overly dismissive. But I did think that the constant replacement of every motivation (except for the govt. cop - he was just a thug), contradictions, and lack of development of even the semi-mystical philosophies justify my overall impression of immature plotting and character development. Also, perhaps, I take philosophical roots for behavior too seriously in fiction. I do stand by my first paragraph. I also look forward to Vince's opinion. I hope that our disagreement doesn't put him on the spot.

Enjoy your Space Beagling. vanVogt also throws in philososophy, Both of history and knowledge (Nexalism).
You are probably aware of his personal allegiance to general semantics (Korzybski) and that he was a founder of Dianetics although he rejected Hubbard's move on to Scientology. It shows. I think that I mentioned that I re-read Beagle a couple of months ago. Look forward to your review. I am tempted to comment further, but that would be unfair to your approach of trying to do your reads with fresh eyes.
 

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