our genre is stagnating

So is it safe to say that some see it as stagnating? I for one have more on my 'to read' shelf than I ever will get to.

As far as separating the wheat from the chaff, that's what places like sffworld.com is for. I have posted a review and had someone here read a book based on it. Only to have them show up a week later hating the book.

Finding reviewers who you agree with is critical in avoiding the feeling that our genre is stagnating. And that varies for lots of folks. Some prefer 'hard SF' or 'real SF'. I just want, above all else, a good story. I don't always even need a big fancy metaphysical question to be asked. I just need a good story.

I prefer authors who aren't offensive in their historical interpretations of various times in the past and events in the past. But... offensive to whom? Just to me when its what I choose to devote several hours of my life to.

Ultimately the genre is not stagnating but it can feel that way if you don't have the right reviewer to help you find what you want to read.
 
So who are the reviewers that you agree with?

psik

Believe it or not -- this site. You, others, the 'official' reviews at sffworld.com.

I have about 1 year of crap on the 'to read' list at the moment thanks in large part to what I have read here. I read some Dresden Files because of this site and it was decent and ended up putting the entire series on the 'to read' list.

As I have said many times, the community here has some really insightful viewpoints on authors.

The only bad thing is that well... there is so much out there to read that I will never catch up. Since venturing here and searching on books I am interested in, I have been able to avoid some of the rotten crap I read 2 years ago.

A better question is who DON'T I trust.

The New York Times and anything they touch.
Publisher's Weekly
Amazon
 
Reviewers are a crapshoot, even ones you may come to "trust" over time. Ultimately it comes down to the gut. You read the blurb, you read the sample, and if it sounds like a decent premise and the writing flows, give it a shot. I think sometimes that sci-fi readers get a little too scientific about the selection process, as though there's some secret formula out there to figuring out what book you're gonna enjoy and which one you won't. There's no formula, there's no review site that'll share your views every time. Heck, the time readers spend fussing over which book to buy, they probably could've read fifty extra books over a lifetime by just going with their gut.
 
Thanks for that vote of confidence, Dennis. :)

There's no formula, there's no review site that'll share your views every time.

Quite right. Mentioned this a few times before. IMO, Reviews are just opinions, although admittedly (and certainly here at SFFWorld) often by people who read a lot.

I think that the best reviews are those that you have background on. By 'knowing' the reviewer, you get to know their likes and dislikes and when their views coincide with yours there's a connection: you might just like what they liked.

It is those differences that generate debate, such as here at SFFWorld.

Doesn't always work - there are some books I love that others don't get and vice versa, for example - but, in the case of SFFWorld, we do try to be honest.

I'm sure there are other places that do the same, though, sadly, not all!

Last (later point): Dennis, it can be overwhelming to feel that you must keep up, with over 800 books a year published. All you can do is read what you can, when you can. But most importantly: enjoy what you read. If you spend all your time trying to get through the pile you can enjoy what you read less, with always keeping an eye on the next one.

Mark
 
Last edited:
I'm trying to think whether I've ever had a review actually change my mind about whether or not to buy a book. Usually, it's more along the lines of seeing a positive review for a book then going to check the book out, but I can't say the decision to buy a book was ever made based on the review, that was always done on my own reading of the blurb and either the preview if it's an e-book, or the first few pages if I'm at B&N. So, for me, reviews are more like a faithful pointer that runs into the bushes and points something out, and then I decide whether or not to shoot....Wait, now that I think about it, reviews do influence me in the negative. If a reviewer I'm familiar with gives a book a negative review, then I'm likely to stay away. Haven't been on SFF long enough to read many reviews, but I agreed with the one about Wool. Intersting dynamic to book reading, kind of a side show, like the NFL pre-game.
 
I'm trying to think whether I've ever had a review actually change my mind about whether or not to buy a book. Usually, it's more along the lines of seeing a positive review for a book then going to check the book out, but I can't say the decision to buy a book was ever made based on the review, that was always done on my own reading of the blurb and either the preview if it's an e-book, or the first few pages if I'm at B&N. So, for me, reviews are more like a faithful pointer that runs into the bushes and points something out, and then I decide whether or not to shoot....Wait, now that I think about it, reviews do influence me in the negative. If a reviewer I'm familiar with gives a book a negative review, then I'm likely to stay away. Haven't been on SFF long enough to read many reviews, but I agreed with the one about Wool. Intersting dynamic to book reading, kind of a side show, like the NFL pre-game.

I certainly have. Only in a few cases though.
 
You actually mean Amazon or the Reader Reviews on Amazon?

Oh, the reviews. I have never had a problem with Amazon in terms of sales. I HAVE had a problem with Amazon's forum users over the need for parental controls on kindle purchases. The overwhelming response was, "You're a terrible parent because you aren't sitting over your kid's shoulder while they are on the kindle and I bet you are letting your 4 year old surf porn and approve of it you heartless turd you should never have had kids." But thats the users, not the company. An Amazon employee actually pointed out that as of May 2012 the Kindle has parental controls. It took them over a year of consumers complaining but finally a stolen Kindle or a Kindle you let your kids play a game on is now safe from the errant purchases of a wandering 4 year old.

Its not that the reviews are fan boy stinted or hater stinted either. Its just that often I find I disagree with the reviews or that they are so shallow that they mean nothing. "Author Smith is great!!!1!1!!" is a crappy review.
 
Reviewers are a crapshoot, even ones you may come to "trust" over time. Ultimately it comes down to the gut. You read the blurb, you read the sample, and if it sounds like a decent premise and the writing flows, give it a shot. I think sometimes that sci-fi readers get a little too scientific about the selection process, as though there's some secret formula out there to figuring out what book you're gonna enjoy and which one you won't. There's no formula, there's no review site that'll share your views every time. Heck, the time readers spend fussing over which book to buy, they probably could've read fifty extra books over a lifetime by just going with their gut.

Yet another smart post.... 8) Good Lord, I agree with you. A review can get me to investigate a book - good example is Retribution Falls. I have been chomping at the bit for that book since 2009. But other books were in the way, etc. However I will definitely buy this book based on the review (assuming the preview on Amazon or on the shelf is not bad).

A book ripped by a reviewer would make me cautious. Good example is Jack McDevitt's Time Travelers Never Die. I very nearly did NOT buy this book because of a mediocre review of it.

Here in the united [at gun point] state, books cost about 2 hours of manual labor to purchase. I convert everything into minimum wage hours before buying it and ask myself if I would dig ditches for that long to buy it. So, 2 hours of manual labor means I am cautious about buying books w/o a review and the 1st few pages.:D
 
Thanks for that vote of confidence, Dennis. :)

...

Last (later point): Dennis, it can be overwhelming to feel that you must keep up, with over 800 books a year published. All you can do is read what you can, when you can. But most importantly: enjoy what you read. If you spend all your time trying to get through the pile you can enjoy what you read less, with always keeping an eye on the next one.

Mark

Ya'll know I love ya. :D Yea, the reviews here are good. From staff and members.

And I DO need to try to come to terms with never being able to keep up. It kills me when Hugo time comes around because I know I can't possibly read all of them. What a great problem to have though, yes? I did vow to put a book down if it sucks. I made that promise many years ago and its done me well.

And as another poster mentioned, sffworld.com is a great side dish for my Sci Fi consumption. I don't have many friends who read Sci Fi and so I get my social fix and buying advice here.

I vote the genre is certainly not stagnating, some people need to be more open minded about what they read maybe (I certainly do), and that reading reviews and participating in discussions can help to decide what to read next. 8)
 
Here in the united [at gun point] state, books cost about 2 hours of manual labor to purchase. I convert everything into minimum wage hours before buying it and ask myself if I would dig ditches for that long to buy it. So, 2 hours of manual labor means I am cautious about buying books w/o a review and the 1st few pages.:D

I love this concept. When I was a college student (read poor) I used to use the 'Pizza' metric. A 4 cut pepperoni pizza from the local place would keep me fed and alive for a day. So when I would buy something I'd always ask if it was worth giving up X pizzas to me.

I still do that now, but I base it on what my 2 jobs translate into $/hour. I now decide if its worth an hour or more of my 'time' or do I need to pay other bills first. Sadly I've not been buying books lately. I bet it has been a year since I got a new one. I just reread old favorites, or try ones I've never managed to finish (Cryptomonicon and I bet I put it down again).

Still though I read reviews and think about what I might buy some day.
 
So who are the reviewers that you agree with?

psik

Russ Allerby has a SF/Fantasy review site. I have read his and a lot of other reviews over the last 4 years. He has a numerical ranking system which most reviewers do not. Although I do not think a numerical ranking can be truly accurate I think it is useful for the speed of comparison. Ultimately we are talking about THOUSANDS of works of fiction. Trying to remember and compare dozens of reviews on each work is a nightmare. Since Bujold's Vorkosigan series is popular and won a bunch of Hugos I applied his ranking system to it and compared my results to his.

So here is my ranking for the Vorkosigan novels:
Code:
                           psi  allerby   diff
[B]Falling Free[/B]                7    7/10       0
[B]Shards of Honor[/B]             6    4/10      +2
[B]Barrayar [/B]                  8.5   6/10     +2.5
[B]The Warrior's Apprentice [/B]   5    7/10      -2
[B]The Vor Game[/B]                7    7/10       0
[B]Cetaganda [/B]                  6    7/10      -1
[B]Brothers in Arms[/B]            7    7/10       0
[B]Mirror Dance[/B]                8    8/10       0
[B]Memory[/B]                      8    6/10      +2
[B]Komarr[/B]                      9    9/10       0
[B]A Civil Campaign[/B]            9    9/10       0
[B]Diplomatic Immunity[/B]         8    8/10       0
[B]Cryoburn[/B]                   7.5   7/10      +.5

Komarr by Lois McMaster Bujold Rating: 9 out of 10
http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/reviews/books/0-671-57808-1.html

We both agree that Komarr and A Civil Campaign are the best two books in the series. But it seems he does not like the Cordelia character and complains about her in Shards of Honor and Barrayar while I think Barrayar was the first really good book in the series and I like what Cordelia has to say. He does not mention the word SCIENCE in any of his reviews so it is apparently totally irrelevant to his evaluation. But in Barrayar I consider the conversation between Cordelia and Vaagan to be very important. Vaagan is responsible for Miles' very existence and it displays an attitude about science that Bujold exhibits throughout the series. Bujold was a pharmacist and her father was an engineer, and it shows in her story telling, though not in what most reviewers say about her works.

Allerby ranked Warrior's Apprentice higher than I did but that was Bujold's first novel and she admits it was rejected four times. It is an entertaining story but just seemed annoyingly implausible so that is why I give it a low rank. It is however an important story since that is where Miles gets hold of the mercenaries so important to the rest of the series.

The Player of Games by Iain M. Banks Rating: 9 out of 10
http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/reviews/books/0-06-105356-2.html

Allerby gives The Player of Games a 9 but I would only give it a 6 out of 10. I was a chess addict in high school, so I could get into the psychology of the protagonist but other than that I was not too impressed with the story.

I started these two but gave up on them. I went passed half way in Consider Phlebas because so many people say it's great, but to me it just came across as mostly a sequence of gratuitous dumb violence and not even entertaining at being violent.

Consider Phlebas by Iain M. Banks Rating: 7 out of 10
Use of Weapons by Iain M. Banks Rating: 8 out of 10

So if I only gave PoG a 6 then CP might at best get a 4 if I finished it. I don't want to finish it. A lot of readers only seem to care about the amount of excietment in stories to me. I read some of the bad reviews of Komarr and A Civil Campaign on Amazon. And lack of excitement is what some readers of the Vor series complain about. Miles isn't running around acting crazy and blowing stuff up so for them they are bad books.

How Allerby rates the Harry Potter books I pretty much have to agree with.

Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone by J.K. Rowling Rating: 3 out of 10
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Rating: 2 out of 10
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Rating: 4 out of 10
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire Rating: 3 out of 10

Unfortunately Allerby has only reviewed one of David Weber's books. I would give Basalisk Station a lower rating than the second book, Honor of the Queen, but not that low. I would give HoQ an 8 and OBS a 5.

On Basilisk Station by David Weber Rating: 3 out of 10

I might give Neuromancer a 3 maybe 4.

Neuromancer by William Gibson Rating: 7 out of 10

So it is like even when I find a reviewer I seem to agree with much of the time on the basis of the numerical rating, the reasons for the agreement and disagreement don't match. And the vast majority of sci-fi reviews for the last couple of decades hardly talk about the science. Things like numbers of points of view and characters using or not using contractions I hardly notice. So the literary characteristics are not my priority. Joanna Russ's attitude in 1975 is more similar to mine.

http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/6/russ6art.htm

http://www.kheper.net/topics/scifi/grading.html

[4896]
psik
 
Last edited:
Reviewers are a crapshoot, even ones you may come to "trust" over time. Ultimately it comes down to the gut. You read the blurb, you read the sample, and if it sounds like a decent premise and the writing flows, give it a shot. I think sometimes that sci-fi readers get a little too scientific about the selection process, as though there's some secret formula out there to figuring out what book you're gonna enjoy and which one you won't. There's no formula, there's no review site that'll share your views every time. Heck, the time readers spend fussing over which book to buy, they probably could've read fifty extra books over a lifetime by just going with their gut.

Thumbs up on that post.

For example, I just put down Falling Free by Lois McMaster Bujold in frutration of the time wasted trying to read it. I probably only read a quarter of it, skiped another quarter to see if things got better....then put it away. I started reading it because of the frequency of praise that Bujold gets and the number of award nominations/winnings.

I really don't think the genre is stagnating. If anything is, it's the publishing house economics of getting the material to the readers.
 
Thumbs up on that post.

For example, I just put down Falling Free by Lois McMaster Bujold in frutration of the time wasted trying to read it. I probably only read a quarter of it, skiped another quarter to see if things got better....then put it away. I started reading it because of the frequency of praise that Bujold gets and the number of award nominations/winnings.

I really don't think the genre is stagnating. If anything is, it's the publishing house economics of getting the material to the readers.

What did you dislike about Falling Free?

It is part of the Vor universe but not the Vor series.

It does have an aspect most Vor stories do not.

http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/bujold-and-the-essence-of-engineering/

Bujold's father was an engineer and it shows.

Whatever the other flaws of the novel (there are several), Falling Free and Leo Graf have this to teach us. You will never fool the metal.

psik
 
Last edited:
science fiction is stagnating. i intend to change that. we dont need a hundred bland stories and weak movies with stunning graphics that attempt to compensate for repetitive, one-dimensional storylines. this generation needs an entire new universe to immerse itself in, a star wars for the 2010's, for lack of a better analogy. i am writing just that. i estimate that my first book of the series will be done before end of the year. if something new that not only science fiction but literature enthusiasts will become enamored with peaks your intrest, keep an eye out for my new universe.

Mission accomplished.
 
Last edited:
science fiction is stagnating. i intend to change that. we dont need a hundred bland stories and weak movies with stunning graphics that attempt to compensate for repetitive, one-dimensional storylines. this generation needs an entire new universe to immerse itself in, a star wars for the 2010's, for lack of a better analogy. i am writing just that. i estimate that my first book of the series will be done before end of the year. if something new that not only science fiction but literature enthusiasts will become enamored with peaks your intrest, keep an eye out for my new universe.

Kyle, I see you've not been back and still have only a single post. I wonder how you are progressing with turning this genre upside down? Anything we can read yet? Any hints at actual story or outline to keep our interest peaked for the next 6 months as we wait?

;)
 
Kyle, I see you've not been back and still have only a single post. I wonder how you are progressing with turning this genre upside down? Anything we can read yet? Any hints at actual story or outline to keep our interest peaked for the next 6 months as we wait?

;)

He sent me note, said, "Damn, this writing stuff is harder than I thought. What's a POV again?":cool:
 
He sent me note, said, "Damn, this writing stuff is harder than I thought. What's a POV again?":cool:

Yes, Yes it is. I've been doing this 'writing stuff' on and off for about 3 decades and I still think that almost every day. :D
 

Sponsors


We try to keep the forum as free of ads as possible, please consider supporting SFFWorld on Patreon


Your ad here.
Back
Top