Critique: Beginning of an idea.

KatG said:
If you do major alterations to the structure of Chpt. 1, I will be ill-pleased. :)

:eek: :eek: Actually the secondary draft is not my favourite, though the additional detail has been dovetailed into the original. It makes it better reading. I did the second because a number of readers commented they wanted the where and who, with regards to the POV right from the beginning. So I did it. I will keep the version, just in case and update it with any editing I do in future. But I need to move on, get chapter two finished and number three started.

Actually the reason behind my not revealling Hardy by name until Adams finds him, was that I was thinking of the "unknown soldier" the very symbol of the lost of that war, so many lost, so many with unknown graves, or no graves at all.


That's not an issue in contemporary fantasy, which is what Glory Hand is. Lots of standalones there. You can just present yourself as being in the Tim Powers neighborhood. I'm just reading his "Declare," which may interest you re this project -- a fantasy spy thriller set in WWII and twenty years later in the Cold War.

That is good to know, I honestly feel, no prefer to write one offs, rather than series, even if the stories can go further. lol....

BrianC said:
Personally I like to make the reader work for the payoff and I like to see other writers do the same. So, yes I think major changes to chapter one is not advisable. To me Holbrook is setting a mood, and setting up the protagonist and antagonist in a horror story. Much as I enjoy military history, this ain't it.

Oh, and I did look up hand of glory. Lot's of nice possibilities there.

I do want to capture the flavour of that times, without drowning the reader in detail. But is fast becoming long ago history for many, whereas my generation had grandfathers that fought in it, so grew up with the knowledge of it and also the lingering affect both of that war and WWII

Yes, the hand of glory, creepy isn't it. :eek: ;)

Bond;

I understand what you are saying. I worry I haven't made it clear enough for the reader what is going on. Though my plan is to have only the first five maybe six chapters set in France, the war does form a backdrop/cause for the events that follows. I want this moment and what happened to shape Hardy's future in many ways.
 
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Holbrook said:
Bond;

I understand what you are saying. I worry I haven't made it clear enough for the reader what is going on.

I fear I may have given the impression that I did not understand too well what was going on in the first version but if it's any reassurance I think the basic situation comes across clearly.
 
But is fast becoming long ago history for many,...
And we hate to teach history to our children. I'd say that any war fought before 1980 is long ago history and fast fading from the consciousness of all but a very few. How many of the current generation have read All Quiet On The Wester Front, I wonder?
Writing tales set in these times with stories that grab the mind at least keeps some of what happened alive and current. I think the only way to learn from history is to re-visit and this is the very best way of doing so.
 
I don't know about that HE, my kid was getting taught about Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. in Kindergarten. Last year, she got to learn all about Amerindian tribes, including their involvement in various wars, etc. While they save the heaviest stuff for high school, it does get taught. Whether it gets absorbed is anyone's guess. I do suspect that WWI tends to get passed over a bit in favor of WWII, though. Which is why WWI and its aftermath are particularly fertile, open ground for stories.

I'll go read the alternate opening if I get the chance, but I was happy with the first version.

While there has been a big crop of series in supernatural fantasy as they follow the mystery series format, the bulk of contemporary fantasy is still mostly like the thrillers -- one shots. Sometimes they go back to them, or link by characters or setting to another work, but it's not a big issue, and does actually make you a bit easier to push on mainstream audiences as well.
 
Holbrook, you should check out this POEM, just as a matter of interest. It's a close subject matter.
 
Just thought I would bring folks upto date with this. nothing new written, but a lot of work done. I have a good solid outline for the story written, where I want it to go. I have a pile of sub notes with regards to tone, feel, texture of the story and what I "want to say" if that makes sense. Really the ideas shaping the story.

I hav the first quarter of the story well researched and roughly know where it is going in each chapter. I reckon six to ten for this.


The middle two quarters I know what I need to research and it is going to drive me daft!!! I need a couple of days if not a couple of weeks in the local library, talking to local history groups etc. The plot of this is simple compared to the setting!! Ten to fifteen, maybe a couple more chapters.

The final quarter is researched, just needs writing.

All in all it is being pondered and thought on a lot, but no work done...lol....
 
You're working. Just don't spend so much time on the research that you lose that narrative flow you've got going and get sick of the thing. (And if you pick up any good research organizing tips, let me know.)
 
Well, on another writing forum I have just been told the following;

"there is some merit, but so far it's lost in fragmented rambling"

"you need a much stronger hook"

"you need to clarify your characters - there are too many and most of them are marginally different from the others. "

"you need to do a lot of reviewing of punctuation and how to form sentences."

"Work on it some more and see if you can get it into a more presentable form"


In fact there was more. Talk about a kick in the teeth! The one that is worrying me more than anything is the "reviewing of punctuation and how to form sentences." I thought I had that cracked???

What with the last few days I have had with real life, this is the last straw...Honestly I am at a loss.
 
Holbrook, I think I would suggest you take what you get from writing forums with a grain of salt. (And I would add, 'especially other writing forums', but that wouldn't be very PC of me.)

Remember the writing forum which told me that if I put two spaces after the period editors wouldn't read it? :)

For myself, I'll have to read your story again, I didn't see any of those things.

B5
 
I'm going to pull rank here. How many manuscripts have I worked on, of all different sorts? So here's what I get to say:

"there is some merit, but so far it's lost in fragmented rambling" -- he's an idiot

"you need a much stronger hook" -- he's an idiot

"you need to clarify your characters - there are too many and most of them are marginally different from the others. " -- he's just a bizarre idiot

"you need to do a lot of reviewing of punctuation and how to form sentences." -- he's a total idiot

"Work on it some more and see if you can get it into a more presentable form" -- an equally total idiot

If too many voices are going to squash you, then stop posting it anywhere but here. You have to remember, all these nice people are being fed loads of gobblygook about what a sff story or any story is suppose to have and they just spit it back out like little robots.

Now, if you get a comment that is not some general, here's how you should do text nonsense, but actually specifically refers to some detail in your novel, that might be helpful, but from the quotes you present, I'm guessing this particular site doesn't offer any of that. So stop using it, please, before you give me a stroke. :) Concentrate on your life stuff, and don't blow out your own candle, as alison would say.
 
Holbrook said:
...Honestly I am at a loss.
Hmm, let's compare and contrast:
"there is some merit, but so far it's lost in fragmented rambling"

"you need a much stronger hook"
--random idiots (tm KatG) from another writing forum.

I think the start of the story where no one is tagged in the dialogue works well. It gives it pace and an immediacy.
--Sean Wright, author, editor and publisher.

Anything else??
 
Holbrook said:
"there is some merit, but so far it's lost in fragmented rambling"

There's a lot of merit in fragmented rambling. It's integral.

"you need a much stronger hook"

Why?

"you need to clarify your characters - there are too many and most of them are marginally different from the others. "

Huh?

"you need to do a lot of reviewing of punctuation and how to form sentences."

Punctuation is controversial, no matter what you do. You know how to form sentences.

"Work on it some more and see if you can get it into a more presentable form"

Er...?
 
Okay, okay, we're being really mean, which is my fault because I started it. Which is bad of me, because I'm always whining about others not accepting alternate views as equally valid in discussions about authors.

The remarks you received at the website are indeed equally valid to mine own. (I was just trying to cheer you up by joking about rank.) They are honest reactions, and if a person found the story fragmentary and confusing, well, it is a deliberately fragmentary style meant to portray chaos, and the person has a perfect right to say how the story seemed to him.

Which is the difficulty of written fiction and getting feedback and assessment of it. Even if you win the Mann Booker prize, the U.S. NBA, the Nebula and the Hugo, there will be huge swathes of your audience who think your book is drivel. And those negative reactions during the process can be possibly very helpful. But they require some interpretation and filtering, because people don't like certain things and types of stories (preferences,) people often have assumptions about what does or does not have to be in a story that color their feedback, and people when they are not engaged by a narrative often are not really paying much attention to what's in it.

So let's look at the comments again without the very unfair tag of idiot.

"there is some merit, but so far it's lost in fragmented rambling" -- did not like the style, found it confusing. This might be a flag to make sure there are enough clarifiers worked in -- a topic that came up here too. But it's mostly a preference comment about the style, the goal of which the person either didn't like or didn't get. The person was not engaged. So somewhat helpful.

"you need a much stronger hook" -- did not get the premise of the narrative or didn't like it. Felt a man hanging in barbed wire in a war zone waiting to die and witnessing a murder was not dramatic enough. Or maybe prefers immediate fantasy action. So not particularly helpful.

"you need to clarify your characters - there are too many and most of them are marginally different from the others" -- there are only a handful of characters, so this remark confused most of us. The characters are also very different from each other. However, this may be related to the voices the Captain hears, which only become clear entities gradually. Maybe another flag to make sure Albert and his companion are a little more clearly specified earlier on, less hallucinatory perhaps. A revision issue up for debate. (Though I would side with what you already have myself.) Tiny bit helpful.

"you need to do a lot of reviewing of punctuation and how to form sentences" -- did not get what you were doing with the style, is not perhaps very familiar with literary stylistic techniques, has probably been told that fiction authors should not use sentence fragments, when in actuality most authors constantly use sentence fragments as a stylistic device. A style preference and not at all helpful. (But a perfectly valid reaction to a style the person doesn't find engaging.)

"Work on it some more and see if you can get it into a more presentable form" -- Again, does not seem to have figured out what you are doing stylistically or doesn't like that sort of style. "presentable form" means nothing definite, so the advice is not helpful.

If the rest of the comments from that site are in a similar vein, then the amount of useful feedback you can get from it is very limited. The comments are not specific enough (see how Sean Wright's is rather more detailed and thus gives you a specific reaction to a particular aspect,) and can give you only a hazy indication of possible problems.

All of the comments you get, here and elsewhere, general or specific, are for later, for revision. Not for the writing process, unless there's a plot issue you feel needs to be unravelled before you can go forward. So keep 'em, store 'em, and when you're all done with the draft or nearly so, then all our little comments come into play.

The important thing to remember is that none of the comments, be they positive or negative, general or specific, are compliments or a kick in the teeth. They're fodder. You're using them to get the story the way you want it to be. If you're losing sight of that idea, then you may need to stop getting feedback on the draft. (There are many authors who let no one see their first drafts for this very reason.) And this goes for all our fine friends who are seeking critiques in this forum.

If you decide that you don't want to pursue the story, or life decides that for you, we will of course live with it. I'm sure there will be some sulking, but it's up to you.
 
Thanks KatG, That's all I can say...

Thanks to others for their comments as well, each one means a lot. I have put more on the other thread about my state of mind at this time.

To be honest that critique was the worst I have ever had for anything, not one positive element, no encouragement at all, it was so superior and "put down". It came at a bad time and caused a lot of pain.

Part of the problem is that "Hand of Glory" is far more than anything else I have written, very personal. I have always wanted to write a story concerned with WW1, the affect of on both the men that fought it and the country as a whole. It was my grandfather's generation that fought it. I knew men that fought it. I knew the people left at home that had to deal with it and everything that came after. A lot of Hand of Glory is working out to be "not made up" if that makes sense, it is based on reality, which makes it far more real and personal to me. I am drawing on the place I live in, places I have known all my life will be in this. I have started to dig into the recent history of a world I thought I knew, but realising the gap of nearly 90 years makes it a world I don't really know. This has lead to the feeling I have bitten off more than I can chew with this, I can't retreat into fantasy and have a wizard wave a wand and make everything right.

If I am going to attempt this story, even just for me, I need to stop putting bits up here there and everywhere for critique. Just use here for feedback at some point when I think I have something that needs major help with.
 
Sounds like a good plan. Let's you get more time in writing so we can read the whole thing sooner :D
 
That it's personal, and from real history may well be a principle source of the story's raw power. It's also timely, I suppose, since this area -- contemporary and historical fantasy of the modern age -- has taken off in the last few years.

We will miss installments, but do whatever it is you need to do. And the same for all these wonderful stories others are doing, which at this point, I can't really keep track of, but wish well.
 
KatG said:
That it's personal, and from real history may well be a principle source of the story's raw power. It's also timely, I suppose, since this area -- contemporary and historical fantasy of the modern age -- has taken off in the last few years.

We will miss installments, but do whatever it is you need to do. And the same for all these wonderful stories others are doing, which at this point, I can't really keep track of, but wish well.

Kat;

I meant I was killing off the input from other sites, too many voices in my head and conflicting advice. My writing ego is fragile enough of late without inviting others to knee cap me :eek: :rolleyes: :)

I have taken it down from every site it was on, but this one. I am now going to take down the bits I have up here and put up the two complete chapters, as they now stand if anyone is interested in reading. I have managed to get the story to nearly 8,000 words completing the first section from Hardy's POV. Started chapter three as well, but it is hard going at present, real life is, and rightly so, taking up my time and energy.


http://www.sffworld.com/community/story/1952p0.html

http://www.sffworld.com/community/story/1953p0.html
 
Sue, I've read the two revised chapters. I am still very impressed. I'm sure that they will change some as you progress with the story. There might be some language to tighten here or some more "atmospherics" to add there, but I think that the reader can really tell that this story is coming from your heart. And that's a good thing.

Obviously online criticism should always be taken wiuth a teapsoon of salt. I bet that if I posted this line:
The sidewalk crouches at her feet like a dog that begs for something sweet.
I would get someone telling me that sidewalks cannot crouch, and (following the well-worn "rules" of sentence composition) suggesting that I use an appropriate verb like 'lays' or 'spreads'. Bogged down in "what-you-can-and-what-you-cannot-do" that person would completely miss the brilliance and the art of that line. Of course, a sidewalk cannot literally crouch, and a sidewalk is not literally like a dog, but the line was never about the sidewalk or the dog. Yet it tells us a lot about the woman.

So if a few people do not get what you are trying to accomplish with Hand of Glory, and do not understand that the perceptions from Hardy's point of view cannot be laser-sharp, I would not be concerned. That's just the nature of art.

The more I write, and the more I read as a writer, the more I understand that to write is to paint with language, it is to compose with words. I am beginning to understand why it is often said that a poet 'composed' her poem. How else is it possible for a reader to 'see' and 'hear' the action and dialogue in their mind as they read? How else can readers 'know' what a character looks like? What we do is Art.

Sue, the picture that you are painting and the score that you are composing in Hand of Glory is not pretty and its not easy. Not everyone is going to 'get' it. But it is good. Believe that.
 

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