Just curious

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Originally posted by Shanoncia
Well... I can remember times when I was four and I could swear I heard breathing in my room... and I could swear that I saw movement in the shadows I would sit up and say "I don't beleive in you." and somehow.., 'it' always went away.

Yes, yes I was a troubled child...:rolleyes:
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Yeah - I used to hear breathing in my room when i was four, too.

Fortunately, shouting that i didn't believe in her never made my baby sister disappear out of her cot.

:rolleyes:
 
Glad you're amused. But my point stands - something that EXISTS is unlikely to go just because you don't believe in it.

It might go because you believe it will - but this is an entirely different matter. There is power in belief. There is only weakness in disbelief.

IMO, as always ;)
 
P'raps I can really only apply that philosophy to the supernatural dimension.:)
 
Well, what about people who people who attain health by achieving a state of mind (this probably isn't going to go over well with all the medical types around).

I mean, I've heard of people becoming healthy, if not by disbelieving, than by forcing ignorance of themselves.
 
Originally posted by saintjon
Well, what about people who people who attain health by achieving a state of mind (this probably isn't going to go over well with all the medical types around).

I mean, I've heard of people becoming healthy, if not by disbelieving, than by forcing ignorance of themselves.
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Correct me if I misinterpreted you. If you mean to become healthy, you need to exersise both your body and mind equally- I utterly agree with you
 
ya that's pretty much the size of it.

Although now I'm wondering if it's belief that you're healthy that does the trick or disbelief that you're unhealthy... :confused:

I've never had the kind of illness which the stories are usually about, so I couldn't really say.
 
oh - i get it- you're talking about faith healing.

There have been some studies that if you give half the people with certain medical conditions the medication, and the other half the placebo (dummy pill) without telling them, just as many people get better on the placebo as the proper medication. Then again, it depends on the condition.

And if u give someone a treatment that should work, and they reckon it won't, chances are it won't (but that could also be because they don't take it because they don't think it'll work)


Belief that it'll work enhances the immune system is the theory. Hard to prove/disprove scientifically because there are too many variable.
 
Sammie and Shanoncia:-
Hmm, let me see if I can help find a counterbalance point for both of your arguements.

First, I agree with Sammie that what actually exist will exist no matter whether you believe it exist or not. For example, the sun will exist regardless of whether you believe in it or not, and once it goes nova, it will cease to exist as the sun we so love regardless of whether we believe it will or not.

HOWEVER, our perspective (ie:- how we view something ) can severely influence how we interpret something. This is where I side with Shanoncia when she says we can will something away by belief.

In the past, because people believed that the sun was the wheel or face of some divine deity, and stared into the sun etc.. and actually fall into ecstatic divine rapture. Nowadays, we look into the sun and feel our cone and rods being burnt away. Is it because the sun deity ran away because we ceased to believe in him? No, it is because the sun deity is our perspective of the star we call the Sun.

Likewise, the experience Shanoncia tells us is again a matter of an attempt to shift perspective. Let me ask you how many of you feared what I think the Westerners called "bogeyman" which is supposed to exist in the closet or under your bed at night? Tell me do you experience this fear now?

Are you not experiencing this fear now because your closet has changed, or the overall nature of the closet has changed worldwide, or have you actually found an effective method to barricade out bogeyman from your closet?

The answer is none of the above. The closet remains the closet, the darkness remains the darkness, only thing is that your perspective of darkness has changed. Where in the past your perspective of darkness was that a bogeyman will pop out, now your perspective is merely as a major nuisance!!

Perspective can change things radically. Reality remains close to immutable, but your perception of reality colors how you see it, and one thing for sure, NONE of us here ever sees reality for what it truly is.

fluffy bunny:-
Actually, placebo effect in the alleviation of pain has already been proven.
 

fluffy bunny:-
Actually, placebo effect in the alleviation of pain has already been proven.
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Has it? I thought it had been disproven as many times- oh well, learn something every day
 
That's true Aik. Belief is a very precarious thing in that it can be the most powerful thing in a person's mind (and therefore, his world) but at the same time, the most flimsiest idea that we can perceive as being created.

Actually, it made me think that human beings are kinda superfluous in the universe in that the universe doesn't care about what we believe in.
 
That's what I like to call taking comfort in impermanence. Well, part of it anyway.
 
Originally posted by Sammie
If i read Juzz's post correctly, his suggestion is that maybe we DO remember them, albeit indistinctly; they have gave rise to our concept of God. (or Gods, depending on your Faith :)). In a sense, they ARE God - and so shall we be.

Am i following the plot here J? I hope so, cos i like this!
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Bang on Kahn and Sammie... I have always respected people who believe passionately about their religion. That has to come from somewhere and it is this deep soul-need that I think (if my theory is taken seriously) to be the memories of our creators.
 
Originally posted by saintjon
I like that theory Juzza, that is a good one!!!

So how does it apply in your everyday life? Since thinking of that, do you see the world differently?
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Hmmm, good question. Well, it means I take a back-seat when it comes to religion. My rule in life is 'Fear none, respect all' and a few people have mentioned treating others the way you would expect to be treated and I guess I subscribe to that notion.

Someone else quite rightly mentioned that true, un-hypoctritical religious people are all caring, loving and thoughtful beings and are all right in the way they pass through life trying to help others and live in peace with nature (I was born in the 70's eh).

I LOVE YOU ALL MAN............... PEACE *Raises the churchill victory 'V' sign* :)
 
Originally posted by Sammie


Juzz it was a compliment, not an order!! Do what suits you best :).
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I know Sam, and I thanked you accordingly. I think rather than write about the theory I will write it into the belief system of one of my characters. A chap who walks the grey path, doing what he can to help, but kicking a*s if he needs to.
 
Originally posted by Shanoncia
IMO faith is very powerful, whether you are religios or not!

To beleive it's true is to make it true, to not beleive it's true is to make it not true. :)
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Aik Haw made an excellent post about perception, just wanted to thank him.

I don't think Shan was talking about the physical world, I can convince myself that Eminem doesn't exist, but the little pr*ck won't vanish!!!

I think (correct me if I'm wrong babe) Shan was talking about belief in general. Henry Ford said.

"If you think you can, or if you think you can't... You are right."

Belief in one's own abilities or in GOD can create miracles, it's a fact. Fear is the mind killer. Eminem is a nob.

PEACE
 
Originally posted by Shanoncia


Thanks for taking the time to type it all out for us love. Interesting theory...
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Now I ask you, who wouldn't love her?

:D
 
Okay - i see where i am disagreeing with people now (and sort of why).

Shan suggests that her ''power of not-believing'' theory applies only to the "supernatural dimension". I don't believe there IS a supernatural dimension - hence one source of disagreement!!

Who was talking about perception? Not sure...

Anyway - totally agree with what you say.....but don't actually see how it has any bearing. Perception and belief are totally intertwined. Neither one has affected reality. The bogey in the closet never was there - your change in perception/belief has changed nothing about your physical world. Instead, your changed belief simply RECOGNISES the truth that always was.

On the other hand - the easy examples of belief changing fact are illness, and atheletics.

I honestly believe that, even when compliance, lifestyle etc are accounted for, the person who BELIEVES he or she is going to get better is more likely to. Taking it to an extreme, the person who BELIEVES that they will die is more likely to. HOWEVER, the person who DOES NOT believe they are going to get better only influences his outcome because he BELIEVES he is NOT going to get better. Also,imo, degree of belief runs on a sliding scale: the greater the belief of the athlete in his ability, the faster he runs. (and htis, i believe, has also been proven in trials)

I think my point is that we don't change fact by NOT believing, but we can influence a state by BELIEVEING the OPPOSITE to be true.[/i]. To take Shan's example, she BELIEVED that the noises in her room were NOT real (although, it's a poor example, because in this case she didn't CHANGE the truth, she merely recognised it.)

Another example. An athlete who stops believing in his ability may have a decreased track time, for 2 reasons: 1) he has decreased belief in his ability - hence the power of his belief to increase his speed has decreased. 2) he believes he can NOT run fast.

The stronger the belief, the stronger the affect. Hence my statement that DISbelief is weak. It is the absence of belief, and hence the absence of a source of power.

Appologies for ranting - am getting very deep into my own personal belief system/life philosophy at this point, hence the ''going on'' :D.
 
And then I saw her face
Now I'm a believer.............. :D
 
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