Just curious

[Pirate Jenn]

Originally posted by Shanoncia
I don't know... I find it almost impossbile to not believe in a supernatural force with they way things roll in this world... just impossible.

I have to agree!!! I've seen too much weird Sh** and had too much dealt to me not to.

Ok. The following may sound very, very strange...but I promise that I'm a normal person!! Just want to illustrate why I believe as I do.

My brother and I used to test God--to see what the whole 'faith of a mustard seed' thing was about. One cloudless night, we sat in Denny's and prayed that it would snow. We finished our coffee, went outside, and--as we walked home--it began to snow. The snow only lasted for about a minute but we were sufficiently frightened--and rightly so! Prayer is not for personal gain and we treated it frivilously ('course this is my worldview shading my perception of the situation).

For a period of a few years, I encountered many spiritually strange things. I hated it and begged God to make it stop (which, now, it has). Each encounter involved a temptation both to fear and to an abuse of power. I wanted to feel important, and the list of encounters (combined with the lack of previous and subsequent encounters) is long enough to convince me that I was being spiritually attacked.

Some of you might understand.

Interesting. I have always preferred to take responsibility for my own achievements as well as my screwups. 'It was Gods Will' strikes me as a convenient escape clause for people trying to weasel out of owning up for there own actions. Oh, it was Gods will that they died. No, it was the drunken son of a b***h who plowed his car into a crossing full of f**king schoolkids. It was his will they died. Not some nebulous 'god'.

CM- I also detest the "It was God's Will" line. I detest it because it's bad theology--completely takes the whole "Free will" aspect out of life. Also, it makes SOME people look down on others--the poor, the sick, etc. Completely goes against the Bible.

Von Sammie:
Is there not a difference in affect (have no idea, just guessing) depending on whether you believe God will help you do something, or whether you believe YOU can do it?

If there isn't, then there is an amazing illusion of it.
I believe that faith in the self is important. There are some things, however, that we can't do ourselves. When those un-doable things get done, there is either a supernatural force behind the action or a supernatural coincidence. (And, most of the time--constantly fearing temptation to feel important--I'm more likely to think coincidence!)
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Don't know anything about Fatima. I'm more impressed with miracles that involve averting death.
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Re: one and only path. I would like to point out, for the record, that all Christians believe that God is merciful. The Torah is peppered with stories about God working through non-Israelite people--individuals that were not a part of the religion and yet recognized God. Which is to say this: God will judge each person. Separately. We do not know how he will judge.

But. For all of you who get frustrated by friends, siblings, and parents who throw the hell thing in your face, have compassion on them. They say these things because they love you. If you believed that someone was attempting to murder a friend of yours, would you say something? It all depended on how urgent you thought such information was. It's a matter of perspective.

I think it's poor form, myself, but I recognize the impulse that it comes from.

Hmmm. I think I've rambled enough.
PJ
(hopes y'all don't think she's a crazy, psycho lunatic. ::biting nails:: )

 

[Carmichael]

Originally posted by Pirate Jenn
(hopes y'all don't think she's a crazy, psycho lunatic. ::biting nails:: )

Think it, nah....

 

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Holbrook
Religion sets up rules i.e. do not kill. Then is quite happy to sanction the killing of all those "not" of their religion, because they are not the "true faith"

Have to say - this tends to only be true of the more extremist factions of any religion, rather than the majority.

You don't need faith to feel the thrill of life, you just have to open your mind to the world around you.

Another chunk of my philosophy

The supernatural, is more or less the human mind's desire to seek to explain things it does not understand or what can't be explained. The secret it to accept that there is much in the world you can't understand or will never have time, even if you live to be two hundred, to learn.

And again

Thanks H

 

[Susan Boulton]

You are welcome

Have to say - this tends to only be true of the more extremist factions of any religion, rather than the majority

Today maybe Sammie:

... but in the past.... the Crusades, the religious wars and persecutions during the 15th 16th and 17th century. The hate and persecution of the Jews be various branches of mainsteam christianity thoughout history. Add to that the constant friction between Muslim and Hindu throughout the centuries in India.

And today the remains of it still colour the way people think.

Perhaps I am old and cynical, but I have read so much history of what was done by one people to another in the name of religion it makes me very weary of the whole bunch of them...

 

[Sammie]

Okay - yes, historically-wise, am with you all the way.

 

[Aik Haw]

Holbrook:-
I have to agree with you that it is only now most religious factions within the Christian and the Islamic religion no longer persecute people etc.. However, I think this has less to do with the maturation within the religion itself than the maturation of society as a whole.

However, could this be due to the fact society has now learnt to accept more views? I find that people who only walks a one tracked path tends to be MORE confident of their righteousness than those who walks a multipolar path.

Pirate Jenn:-
This is one thing most people who follows religions outside Christianity, Islam and Judaism find irritating about the Judea-Christian faith. Though we are very happy that you have a very solid belief foundation, we are also very distressed by the "physical" and "literary" actions taken by various Christian groups especially, to impose their views upon us.

For example, the whole concept of burning in hell if you do not have faith in the Judea-Christian God. Now, as a Buddhist, we find this concept near fascinating. As far as we are concerned, if a deity appears before you and you wanted to belief in him or her, fine, but we find the idea of being punished for lacking commitment to something that either has no intention to make his or her presence indisputably known, or is deliberately making his or her presence vague, as either defying the law of cause and effect, or something that has nothing to do with the nature of the deity itself. As a Buddhist would point out, if something was Ultimate Reality unflawed and unbiased by perception and leaning, everyone should theoretically come close to a universal agreement!!

And being one of the few paths that demands everyone to "question" what is taught, to even refute what is taught, to shift perspective etc.. we find it hard that we should have to accept a Book at face value, especially after you sit down and start dissecting the book, various inconsistencies and errors starts popping up. Not to say the sutras are consistent, sutras are not consistent, and some sutras smacks of plagiarism or author creativity, and one thing, we happily admit to that!! Barring some very radical groups, most groups make no attempt to even defend the inconsistencies, though some people actually came up with ultra super plausible reasoning ironing off the inconsistencies, but since it makes too many "if" assumptions, it is deemed as "conjecture."

This is not so for the Christian faith, I am sorry to say, who will defend the book as though the book was not written by the hand of man, but as though even the printing machine was probably located in heaven.

This is not meant as an attack, just some surprise I have encountered in walking the Path of the Seeker. I have tried many times to shift my perspective to that of a Christian though I admit, having too many other perspective bogging me down results in a real wobbliness.

 

[saintjon]

Whether you believe in chi or the tao or not, it sure is a heck of a beautiful thing to walk around in a nice spot with lots of trees and just hear how noisy silence is.

I didn't really appreciate the overwhelming brilliance of it until I started applying the understandings I gained through pursuing wisdom though.

Which would you rather gain from a religion, faith or wisdom?

Faith is a wonderful thing, but only, I think, when it is nourished and tempered by widom (I'm not saying it's wise to be skeptical, just there are wise ways to incorporate faith into the world ie: gaining the ability to see from other perspectives as Aik is stressing)

 

[Sammie]

Originally posted by saintjon
Which would you rather gain from a religion, faith or wisdom?

If you ask me, it's like all else in life:

"All things in moderation"

Ie both please, but not too much of either

 

[saintjon]

Gotta love balance eh?

But really, I think it's more the movement towards balance that promotes health, cuz it's not like you could ever actually attain it (you'd probably live a VERY long time if you could... or die instantly), cuz it's the dynamic that promotes growth.

 

[kegasaurus]

In my eyes religion has always been fallible as it was written and is read by Humans. This thing called free will that we have leaves a lot of things open to interpretation adn as humans we do go out and exploit this for personal gain.

All you really need is a strong moral code, the love of both family and friends, the ability to emphasise ( which is something we're losing) and a crap load of beer.

 

[Shanoncia]

Some basic questions answered...

What about all the hypocrites in Christianity (Like the televangelists caught in scandals)?

Such situations are hardly new. Even among Jesus' twelve apostles, one (Judas Iscariot) proved to be a fake and a traitor. The presence of phonies, however, does not negate the value of "the real thing." The existence of counterfeit currency has not led anyone that I know to empty their wallets and burn the contents. It is Jesus Christ and Him alone that Christians proclaim as Lord and Savior. The failure of a supposed follower does not detract from His perfections.

How could any modern, educated person believe in the Bible?

There is no shortage of highly educated and intelligent people in our modern age, as in every age, who are convinced of the Bible's reliability, accuracy, and divine origin -- and this in spite of constant efforts of many to disprove the Bible. Supposed contradictions are answered, while man's knowledge of history, psychology, philosophy and science lend confidence to a belief in the Bible. In addition, its power to dramatically improve lives and the satisfy the deepest longings of man validate it's claim to be the message from the God who made us and loves us.

Why do Christians say that Christ is the only way to Heaven? Isn't that intolerant?

Christians say this because Jesus Christ Himself made it clear: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). Christians declare this truth out of a love for God and concern for their fellow man. There is an infinite number of incorrect answers to question "what is 2 + 2" but only one true answer. Truth is by definition narrow.

Can a Christian live a wicked life, as long as he or she believes in Christ?

There is a saying, "Christians are not perfect, only forgiven." That is true as far as it goes. A person who turns to Jesus in faith does not immediately become sinless. However, another phrase needs to be added to that statement: "Christians are not perfect, only forgiven and growing." A sinner who accepts Christ begins the process of dying more and more to sin and living more and more to God. This is not an "option" for Christians, but a certainty. Jesus comes into a person's life not only as Savior but also as Lord, and will be "at work ... to will and to act according to his good purpose" (Philippians 2:13). If some one claims to believe in Christ and yet remains morally unchanged, that person's faith is bogus.

How do we know there really is a God?

The answer to this question starts not in a person’s head, but in their heart. "Do I really want to know…. or am I asking this just to avoid meeting God?" If a person is really seeking the truth, then there are some very valid reasons for believing in the reality of God. If not, there will probably never be enough proof to satisfy them. For the sincere seeker, here are some ideas. (Note: The Bible never argues for the existence of God, it simply assumes it.) We know there is a God for several reasons….

1.Nothing in this world is able to explain its own existence; thus, there must be a Supreme Being in order to explain the world in which we find ourselves. (If there is a creation, there must be a Creator. Romans 1:20). (Theologians call this the "Cosmological Argument".)

2.The characteristics of the universe and life on our planet are so intricate that the idea of chance or coincidence being the means by which such intricacy developed is laughable. If you would never assume all the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle could assemble themselves by just shaking the box, why would you assume that such amazing order and organization in the physical world occurred by means of random events. (If there is a design, there must be a Designer. Romans 2:4). (Theologians call this the "Teleological Argument".)

3.People’s own hearts tells them that there is a God….. otherwise they would not have asked the question in the first place. There is a basic inborn "guidance system" within every person of every culture and time period that enables them to sense right/wrong, fair/unfair, good/bad. This is far beyond a physical mechanism. It is the implanting of an inner sense of "law" that must have been given by a greater mind. (If there is a law, there must be a Lawgiver. Romans 2:14-16). (Theologians call this the "Moral Argument".)

4.You can’t explain Jesus Christ unless God exists. The life, words, and works of Jesus are well documented in history for the honest researcher to see. If He was a real person, then it is crucial to determine the truthfulness of His claim (that He was the divine Son of God… indicating the reality of God, Himself). Jesus even said (in John 14:7-11) that His own reality was inseparable from that of God’s. Jesus Christ (using the logic of C. S. Lewis) was either a legend, a liar, a lunatic… or the Lord that He claimed to be. And if His claims stand up, then there must be a God, existing as the ultimate Reality.


"… you will know the truth, and the truth will
set you free." John 8:32 (niv)

 

[Sammie]

Originally posted by kegasaurus
All you really need is a strong moral code, the love of both family and friends, the ability to emphasise ( which is something we're losing) and a crap load of beer.

Totally agree with all this (especially the beer!).........except the bit about 'emphasising'...........i think perhaps you mean 'empathise'?? - i which case i'm with you ALL the way .

 

[Blizzaurel]

A question for the Christians: any comments on the recent priest scandals? I mean, aren't they supposed to be chosen by God?

And what about other ministers and such that are terrible people? God must be fallible if he could allow such people to preach his holy word...

 

[Aik Haw]

Shanoncia:-
( For others, I am now putting a religious shoe on, so bear with me )
As a non-Christian who believe in other Gods, my only question to you is simple.

For me, I live with the knowledge that other deities other than Yahweha and Christos exist, some of them many times higher in the scale of divinity compared to where Yahweha and Christos are placed, to the point I believe we are all emanation of the one Reality.

Now, how do you as a Christian refute the existance of the other Gods, who also promises us salvation to a degree greater than that of Christianity, to join the Gods as Gods ourselves, to walk the path of the eternal as EQUALS? Or to transcend beyond the Gods into Buddhahood and Bodhissatvahood, than into Ultimate?

You say 2+2=4, that is not 100% true, some values now place the value at values of billions. Mathematics in it's purest form is not exact!! And neither is any of the sciences.

 

[Shanoncia]

The is simple love, God told us not to worship any but him, because he was the one and only... we beleive Jesus is the only way because he told us just that.

 

[Mag]

We seem to be moving past the original fair and open minded discussion that was earlier, but I think thats ok. Getting now to peoples real feelings. I have never believed in the literal translations of the bible. I am Christian but also don't discount anything. I think we're all saying similar things but our approach may be different. And we'll all get to the same place in the end.
To me God and choice are one. The strength we gain, whether we rely on ourselves or our God are the same. I think it is good to be strong and self reliant. Just like our own perception of what is real is affected by our reality.
My favorite Auntie was pronounced dead after a heart attack.
But several minutes later they managed to revive her. Like many others, she saw the tunnel, the light etc. When several years later she lay on her death bed, she told my uncle,"Take away the oxygen, I want to die in peace." And she did. She was a very devout Catholic and she told us after her experience, that she would never be afraid of death because it was a wonderful peaceful thing.
Now I could take what she said at face value and believe everything. or I could question everything being suspicious of all she said. I choose to be both. If it is possible to have faith and question, then thats me. And wonder keeps me open to possibilities of which I havn't even dreamed yet.

 

[fluffy bunny]

Why ask explain god?
You don't ask explain the spark of life. Why is life so precious to us?

Somethings we don't know about one way or the other. In the end, it's up to if you can choose believe in them or not.








________________________________________________
"It's easy to find things worth dying for. Can you find anything worth living for?"

 

[Shar'lai]

I do not wish to offend anyone with what I have to ask. It is not my intent. But I must ask how any can be 100% certain of the truths stated in the Bible? The original translations of the texts that make up the Bible have been proven to be incorrect in many areas. How can any say that the information is what Jesus is to have said?

Has anyone here read 'Bloodline of the Holy Grail' written by Sir Laurence Gardner? He has done extensive research into the documentation used to fill the pages of the bible, and he has discovered that it is full of inconsistancies and incorrect translations.

My brother, who is a very devout Christian, was also intrigued by the information that Gardner revealed in his books, and he too, with the aid of his bible group decided if they could find something to back Gardner's claims. They did. They found that Garnder was correct in stating that the word mistranslated to mean 'virgin' actually translates to 'young maid' or 'young woman'. He also found that he must concur with the tranlations re: Mary Magdalene.

Gardner claims that the true translations of texts show that Mary Magdalene was actually Jesus' wife, not a prostitute. Nor was Jesus immaculately concieved. His mother was actually married, and had two other sons besides Jesus.

Nor was he the 'son of god'. He was a great and wise king, and a religious leader, but nothing more than that. He did not die on the cross, that was merely part of a cyclic ritual of his people. He went on to father several children with his wife.

The one thing is that if what Sir Laurence claims is actually true, then Jesus was a man that I could have easily revered as a great leader and king. He would have been a wise and forward thinking person, who deserved the recognition and respect that he engendered.

I also love the fact that in the Gardnerian writings Mary Magdalene is at last raised from the status of whore to wife, which I have always believed that she was. It also shows the Nazarenes as being a people misplaced in time. Their beliefs and teachings would be of great benefit to the people of this era.

I have read the Bible and enjoyed it, but as a writer myself, I cannot believe that it has been interpreted flawlessly, or correctly. I have always long held that the words were colored by the policital leanings, and beliefs of the persons in charge of transcription and interpretation.

I cannot and will not believe that such a tolerant and accepting man, as Jesus was espoused to be, would be overjoyed by the crimes that have been perpetrated in his name, or the fact that the Church delegated women to such an unthinking, servile role.
Especially when the women of the Nazarenes were treated as equals. Nor could I see a man who was a great astrologer, and user of somewhat 'arcane' practices to have been so 'anti-pagan'.

The writing of our modern Bible was controlled by one Bishop Alexander. Now he was what you could call a bit of a religious zealot, and a power hungry and greedy man. King James basically gave him total control over the content of the Bible because he was trying to 'curry favor' of the Church. Now I ask you this, if Bishop Alexander was such a controlling, power hungry man, what better way to control the masses than by lacing the translations with his own beliefs.

I do believe that there are many peoples out there that follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazarenes, but I do not believe that the Bible, which was written by minions of the Orthodox Roman Catholic Church (a power grasping money making machine even back then), correctly states those teachings.

Methinks it is a wonderfully good story woven out of half truths and misinterpreted texts.

 

[Aik Haw]

Shanoncia:-
I love your way!! If only all Christians can see their path as a personal choice, not necessarily one that covers every being, but, above all, is to see love!! Blessed be and may the Devas always shine on your path!!

Mag:-
A moving story. There was a friend I know who was involved in a car accident, and while he was being transported to the hospital, smiled despite the pain and blood. His friend, another good friend of mine, asked him when he was oscillating between wake and sleep, how to get contact with his parents. This was when I was in high school, and most of us were panicking ( OK, we were in the car not far from his ). His what we think is his last statement, was( pieced together ):-

"Goddess, it is so beautiful. To think I never believed in the Summerland!! Goddess, thank you."

Shar'lai:-
Is is so new that Jesus had two brothers? Read NT!! It is not hidden!!

 

[Aik Haw]

Mag:-
And no, we were not drunk or doped. He struck black ice, which we would have struck were he not driving his little car before us.