Critique: Beginning of an idea.

Hi,

Great post from BrianC, there.

Unfortunately, I'll have to say that chapter one went from brilliant to merely good. Hardy's daze, ironically, brought the thing alive for me. I also liked the way the narration oscillated between various states of coherence. This one's too linear. Too many "he thoughts" remind me of the narrative situation. I'm unable to judge chaper 1 on its own, but comparing it to the first version I read it lost so much. And, no, chapter 1 isn't bad, now, it's just not what it used to be.

Chapter 2 is great. Lots of verbal gems (little ones, like the chain of the watch chiming a lament - and they're all context bound). Hardy fighting for post mortem identification is very powerful. I love the ending. The language rhythm is quite appropriate, too.

Apparantly, Hardy reads literature. ;)

Keep at it (and restore chapter 1 :p ).
 
Have not had a chance to read new Chpt. 2 yet, but I'm with Dawnstorm -- bring back the original Chapter 1 please!

The current version of Chapter 1 seems flatter. You've taken out a good bit of the style and voice. You make very proper sentences now, and consequently, the narrative loses intensity and doesn't draw the reader in as much, is less visceral. The poetic aspects are lessened. The text sounds more awkward in its rhythms.

Consider the original first draft version:

A star shell exploded high over no-mans-land. In the flickering man-made light hell was again visible. Pockmarked. Reeking. Home to the living, the dead, and those, like the man in the shell hole, somewhere in between. Mud. Thick. Hardened. His face a mask. Cracking, as his eyes moved in response to the cascade of light above his head.
Trapped.

This text immediately raises questions, including who is this man? We're very focused on the imagery. It's his fragmented, confused, barely conscious pov, overhearing the conversation we've just been given by two soldiers unseen.

Now look at the "cleaned-up" version. Much of the text is the same, but the sentence structure has been changed:

A star shell exploded high over no-mans-land and in the flickering man-made light hell was again visible, pockmarked and reeking. A home to the living, the dead, and those like Captain Robert Hardy, somewhere in between. Mud – thick and hardened; his face a mask, cracking as his eyes moved in response to the cascade of light above his head.

We're told who the man is -- Captain Robert Hardy, and it reads clunky to me. I don't need to know this man is Hardy yet. I don't need to know who he is till Adams finds him, actually.

It's not that the version 1.A doesn't read decently, or isn't interesting and compelling. It's just not quite as good and effective, IMHO. Ultimately, it's up to you as the author and you have to trust yourself, but if we have any voting weight, I vote for the 1.0 version. :)
 
Sorry I didn't get back to this earlier. I meant too, but kept getting sidetracked.

Anyway, much thanks to BrianC, Dawnstorm and KatG for thoughts, opinions and support.

Done a bit of backwards editing *g*, I think I have the two first chapters now as I want them (until editing when it is completely done).

I have started chapter three, this, along with chapter four doesn't need much research, (well, save for pouring over maps of Belgium) so hopefully it will come together quickly. These will be from Albert's POV, then it will be back to Hardy's for five to eight, then back to Albert's I want to keep this from those two POV's if I can, but it might not happen...

How long it will take me to write this goodness knows, progress is slow as I am limiting myself to just a couple of hours a week on this project, it gets to intense if I sit for longer than half an hour at a time. In between I am working on lighter, well not story wise, but easier to write work, work that has the research done, characters created and worlds in existence. In other words re-visting some prior work.
 
Keep going at the pace life allows. Hope everything's well.

I know what it's like meaning to respond, but not getting around to it. :o

It's nice to have chapters in a satisfying shape, isn't it?
 
The comments about the other effort got me thinking, am I producing flat writing at present???

This is the first bit of chapter three, well the bit I am fairly satisfied with. Is it using a differetn POV, and thus is perhaps harsher, but is it in keeping with the story.

http://www.sffworld.com/community/story/2251p0.html

That one's great. Very atmospheric and totally consistent. That's how you sound when you're good. It reads as if the story pulled you forward. Editing will mainly be a matter of punctuation and typos.

Compare the first paragraphs, for example. (I put comments into square brackets and bolded what the comments are about):

Coot's pass said:
It had been a mistake to discharge the pistol in the cave, but he could not [tense?] get his victim to budge from the supposed rendezvous. [unspecific1] Colliridge shook his head trying to clear the wooliness. [unspecific2] If any of Fetroll's [the victim? a leader responsible for the victim?] people were on his trail he doubted he would hear them, best keep his eyes doubly peeled. Not that Colliridge expected any would be tailing him, but there was always an off chance that one of the lesser chieftains had gotten curious and come up, [unspecific3] risking Fetroll's displeasure. A knife would have been better, less risk, but his employer [unspecific4] needed Fetroll to be found with a lump of lead made in Timeholm in his heart. [clunky]

Now, not all of the unspecifics are bad; but there's so little to balance them that I don't get into the paragraph. It's mostly information, but it's vague information.

unspecific1: "supposed rendezvous". So someone (Colliridge) met with Fetroll in a cave? Was Colliridge part of the "supposed" rendezvous, or had he come in place of another? If the former, why wouldn't Fetroll budge? If the letter, why should he? A lot of questions there, some of which you may not want to answer, but answering none leaves the reader with little to pay attention to.

unspecific2: what wooliness? I suspect you're referring to Colliridge's "what-might-have-been" thoughts, but since he just fired a gun in a cave he could be feeling generally "wooly", a bit dazed by gunsmoke in a closed room in combination with echo. I still think it's the former, though.

unspecific3: The sentence in itself is actually a quite clever way to introduce both setting and Fetroll's status. (would have more impact if I was certain, at that point, that Fetroll was the victim, though.) Anyway, the unspecificness here concerns the "up" in "come up". Up where? Does this have anything to do with the rendezvous? Up here? Or do the lesser Chieftains live further down the mountains, and they're just generally in the vicinity?

unspecific4: Well, that one's just marked for completeness, as you really shouldn't make this any more specific at this point.

Add to that the implicit unspecificness of the setting. A cave; well, what kind of cave? Big? Small? Culturally significant? Lived in? Obscure?

We have little to go on; we don't get a sense of setting.

Another thing I want to point out is that your punctuation seems to make sense in this one. Obviously, this isn't a flaw, but I think it's significant. Remember it for now.

Hand of Glory said:
"Bloody Officer's tart," Albert rasped, as he hobbled away into the dark. The pit of his stomach was on fire, he felt as if his gonads had been driven up into his chest. Damn that, bend-over-for-officers, Corporal. The maze of bobbing lights surrounding the convoy soon faded. He stumbled against a wooden cross. Albert had run into the crude cemetery that lay to the east of the main dressing station. He fell to his knees on the damp earth mound, his right hand resting on the arm of the cross.

See how sentences flow one into the other here? There's a lot going on and little information.

Also, notice how you make a comma between two sentences, instead of a fullstop (or possibly a semicolon)? (...fire, he...) Notice how you enclosed an adjectival construction that modifies a noun inbetween comma? (..., bend-over..., Corporal: it's equivalent to: damn that, stupid, corporal).

I think what's happening is that, when you're on a roll you lose control of punctuation; it's the downside of producing good text, it seems to me (but it's easier to fix punctuation than to invigorate a text, so it's not that bad, really).

From that I speculate (but I might be wrong) that you didn't really get into the Coot's Pass scene while writing. Perhaps your imagination is tied up with Hand of Glory? Or perhaps you're focussing too much on plot with that one? Or perhaps you just had a bad day?

Don't let your inner weasel bloat itself on that other scene. Hand of Glory remains great prose. :)
 
I got very confused, reading the start of Chpt. 3, and realized I must have missed text, so went back and read Chapter 2, rather unsure because it looks like you've been rewriting a lot, but then read all of 2 with the material I hadn't seen and re-read the opening of Chpt. 3, where upon everything made perfect sense.

It is (word I can't say on the forums) brilliant. Please keep going. Albert's pov works fine. You're maintaining a mild strain of background omnisicience which works well -- just stay aware that you are doing it so you can use it how you like. I would line-edit some tiny bits of Chpt. 2, but there's no point in worrying about that sort of thing now. Finish Chapter 3 if you can, depending on research needs. That will give you a solid chunk of text.

I had one minor quibble about Albert and Jim being brothers, but then I remembered that kids in the same town, etc., signing up together often ended up in the same squads, so that works okay, I think.
 
Dawnstorm; I will read and digest your post later, bit rushed for time, but thanks for commenting, with reply in depth, hopefully tomorrow.

KatG; Thanks!!!! Oh the research is complete for the WW1 section so I am hoping to knock out up to chapter 6 or 7 in the next couple of weeks. (I have some holiday to use up next week, so hoping to have two whole days writing!)

The research for the middle section is falling into place better than I thought, I am hoping to "suggest" time and place rather than too much detail if I can.

As to brothers being in the same Batt, yes it happened here. In fact we had the Pals Batt made up of friends, or men from either the same type of business/town. Sad thing was, when a Batt had heavy losses, whole towns and villages lost huge chunks of a generation. In WWII men were sent to other batt on purpose, so if one lost a lot of men it didn't hit a community the same.

I am also going to leave going back and doing any major editing now until I have it written. Then it will be hours struggling over my bad grammar.
 
That one's great. Very atmospheric and totally consistent. That's how you sound when you're good. It reads as if the story pulled you forward. Editing will mainly be a matter of punctuation and typos.

That's good to know, been worrying a lot about the style and manner of this. HofG has a way of forming in my mind unlike any other thing I have written, bit like a street in a flickering car head light, jumpy. You see bits clear as day, but disjointed.


unspecific1: "supposed rendezvous". So someone (Colliridge) met with Fetroll in a cave? Was Colliridge part of the "supposed" rendezvous, or had he come in place of another? If the former, why wouldn't Fetroll budge? If the letter, why should he? A lot of questions there, some of which you may not want to answer, but answering none leaves the reader with little to pay attention to.

unspecific2: what wooliness? I suspect you're referring to Colliridge's "what-might-have-been" thoughts, but since he just fired a gun in a cave he could be feeling generally "wooly", a bit dazed by gunsmoke in a closed room in combination with echo. I still think it's the former, though.

unspecific3: The sentence in itself is actually a quite clever way to introduce both setting and Fetroll's status. (would have more impact if I was certain, at that point, that Fetroll was the victim, though.) Anyway, the unspecificness here concerns the "up" in "come up". Up where? Does this have anything to do with the rendezvous? Up here? Or do the lesser Chieftains live further down the mountains, and they're just generally in the vicinity?

unspecific4: Well, that one's just marked for completeness, as you really shouldn't make this any more specific at this point.

Add to that the implicit unspecificness of the setting. A cave; well, what kind of cave? Big? Small? Culturally significant? Lived in? Obscure?

We have little to go on; we don't get a sense of setting.

Ouch, but I agree with every word, I wasn't there, save for the bit about the fissure in the mountain.

Another thing I want to point out is that your punctuation seems to make sense in this one. Obviously, this isn't a flaw, but I think it's significant. Remember it for now.

Really??? That surprises me, it really does. See belwo for comments on the second half.



See how sentences flow one into the other here? There's a lot going on and little information.

I thought they were too disjointed I get worried that folks might not want to read a whole book in this style. Though, I don't think it will be much more than 100,000 words. The style does allow you to tighten the scenes, explain more with less (does that make sense)

Also, notice how you make a comma between two sentences, instead of a fullstop (or possibly a semicolon)? (...fire, he...) Notice how you enclosed an adjectival construction that modifies a noun inbetween comma? (..., bend-over..., Corporal: it's equivalent to: damn that, stupid, corporal).
Ooops :o

I think what's happening is that, when you're on a roll you lose control of punctuation; it's the downside of producing good text, it seems to me (but it's easier to fix punctuation than to invigorate a text, so it's not that bad, really).

From that I speculate (but I might be wrong) that you didn't really get into the Coot's Pass scene while writing. Perhaps your imagination is tied up with Hand of Glory? Or perhaps you're focussing too much on plot with that one? Or perhaps you just had a bad day?

Well I suppose losing control of my punctuation is better than not writing something interesting.:confused: Maybe my imagination is tied up too much with HofG and I should stick with that.. In fact I have started to day dream scenes, not done that with anything since I was writing the first draft of Oracle, nearly 18 months, 2 years ago

Don't let your inner weasel bloat itself on that other scene. Hand of Glory remains great prose. :)

Thank you, I hope to have more by Wednesday, have a long weekend where I intend to get as much computer writing time as I can. Maybe I can get this story out of my system by the summer. That would be good. Then I can start editing it.:eek: :eek:
 
Well I suppose losing control of my punctuation is better than not writing something interesting.:confused:

Oh, definitely. Not least because punctuation is a lot easier to fix.

Maybe my imagination is tied up too much with HofG and I should stick with that.. In fact I have started to day dream scenes, not done that with anything since I was writing the first draft of Oracle, nearly 18 months, 2 years ago

That's a good sign, isn't it? (Personally, I couldn't mix projects at all. I'd get hopelessly confused.)

I thought they were too disjointed I get worried that folks might not want to read a whole book in this style. Though, I don't think it will be much more than 100,000 words. The style does allow you to tighten the scenes, explain more with less (does that make sense)

The style's very fluent, very packed. I can't afford to let my attention slip. Although this happens whatever I read -- I have a short attention span, but that doesn't matter because: (1) I like books that make me work, and (2) it makes for good re-reading value (as you'll get things the second time through you missed/ignored the first time).

I'd definitely read the whole book, if the style's kept up.
 
Right, taken down that part chapter and put up the full first draft of chapter three.

The pace is slower, but I hope in keeping with the story. A bit more detail about The Hand of Glory etc. It will change of course a bit, maybe fleshed out, or sections edited. But the main thrust of the story is there.

Concerned that I have not quite got Albert's character right, I did write him speaking more "local", but realised I had to tone it down, yet keep it in character, he is a nasty bloke but I didn't want to make him black as black, hope it has worked.

I am hoping to do the whole story just from his POV and Hardy's I think I can write well enough to do that.

Oh, won't be putting any more up on the community after this, need to get it done, but will need readers hopefully soon.

http://www.sffworld.com/community/story/2263p0.html
 
Chapter Three is important because 1) we learn that the things Hardy saw and experienced during his time in the pit, which may or may not have been real, were in fact real; and 2) this is where the fantasy elements start to clearly come into play. The glory hand stuff is all wonderfully creepy.

I see no problems with Albert's pov. He is like a rat terrier (no insult to rat terriers,) all fierce determination. You may want to tweak the French characters just a bit later on, but the set-up seems very much in keeping with the intensity and mood of the earlier chapters.
 
Thanks KatG, point taken about the French characters. Have tweaked a bit, but have really got on with the main writing this weekend. Chapter four is done and dusted, also the first scene of chapter five (back with Hardy) It is going well now, all falling into place.


The hard work of research and reading is beginning to pay off. I am now topping 17,000 words. When chapter six is complete the first section should come in at 24,000 to 25,000. The second should be slightly longer at about 40,000 to 45,000. With the final section maybe being about 20,000 I am looking at a first draft of maybe 85,000 to 90,000 words, a bit short for me lol, but that will give me a couple of thousand words to play with. I don't want this going over 100,000 words if possible. It needs to short, sharp, sparse on detail, but powerful in feeling.

I am really beginning to get a buzz with this, hopefully if I keep my nose to the grindstone and plug away I should have a first draft by Easter!
 
19,000 words give or take a hundred, going very well indeed. Though I doubt I will do more before Saturday.

Chapter five finished in first draft. Though the final scene might be added too as regards Major James Parker.

Chapter six scrapped. Decided it is really not really necessary. The pace of the story is better served with moving on in time to 1920. I have a real creepy scene in my mind which fits better and imparts the info that was going to be given in chapter six a lot better. Besides, Parker is a better foil for Hardy's dour and bleak look than the original outlined character of the Police Inspector.

Hardy, weighted down with what he went through in the War and Parker, well water off a duck's back, seemingly untouched by his service in the trenches.
 
I hate you and I'm cheering for you too. :)

If it turns out that you find you need the transitional time-bridge chapter, you could always put it back in later.
 
Thanks KatG, I think ;)

Spent yesterday morning battling with the mircofilm viewer in the local library. They haven't got round to putting the old newspapers on computer discs yet. It was fun, though. A very good local history/document section in the new library, so once I get the copies I have requested off the film, (They take a couple of days, as the film has to be loaded into another machine attached to a copier) then I can plod on. I am also plannig to go back a couple of times to complete my research.

On a side note a lot of old photos of the town etc have been loaded onto computer and are even on the net. Found a picture of my grandmother no less at a VJ party lol...

Anyway, chapter six is well planned out in my head, as is chapter seven. Chapter seven might actually get written first, as six involves the details I haven't had from the library.

Was very surprised at first about all the adverts for events, plays, dances, three picture houses etc. The social life of the town was booming far more than now. Then I realised, no TV, no computers they had to make their own fun, makes me wonder if folk were more sociable then.
 
Actually chapter six has been written first, nearly finished too. I am at 21,000 words now.

I came across a superb source of pictures, even of the real historical event I wanted to include in chapter six. It has been very spooky writing this scene, looking at the picture; pulling details out of it, placing my characters there.

Also a pile of pictures of the rest of the town at that time. Super police station, very Victorian!!! lol... It will be superb to write a later scene outside and in there.

My main worry is that this story might not reach 90,000 words. I think it will, but what is the lower limit for a novel???
 
Oh Sue, that is bloody brilliant. You MUST finish this book. Finish it first and then worry about how long it is. If it's a novella, then its a novella; besides you can always go back and add ni more "atmospherics".
 
Oh Sue, that is bloody brilliant. You MUST finish this book. Finish it first and then worry about how long it is. If it's a novella, then its a novella; besides you can always go back and add ni more "atmospherics".


It was great! Though I have spent hours going through the local history site to find what I needed. Thank goodness for the lottery which gave funds for this!!!

Hope this link works;


http://www.search.staffspasttrack.o...rection=1&pointer=14635&text=0&resource=14748

I am going to finish I promise!!

I am also looking for someone to read what I have so far, just to give me thoughts on if I am going in the right direction. (hint, hint!)

As too length I suppose it will take as many words as it will take....
 
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